Pelton vs Callistrid 1.08.07 game cancelled RL issues.

[Peltonx]

Server game
Locked HQ Support
Full FOW

House Rules:
No Para drops
No bombing of air bases more than 3 times a turn (after turn 1)
No bombing of HQ's unless stacked with a ground unit
No naval invasions before November 1941, none outside the 1939 Soviet borders before January 1943
In addition if Sevastopol is either isolated, or in German hands, none west of the Crimea,
which reflects the scope for air/naval interdiction not really reflected in the game.
30 day rule = no turns or replies in e-mails or PM's (RL 1st) in 30 days by one player the other wins by default.
New Patches will be used as soon as possible.

Additional Auto VC:
If the Axis player holds
Leningrad, Moscow, Voronezh and Rostov concurrently at any time in 1941 he wins
an Auto Victory. No need to waste any ones time as we all know the end results based on past games if these cities fall in 1941.

Optional Rules Setup:

Mild Blizzard Rules
Random Weather
No 1-1 = 2-1



Turn 2 GHC Armaments: 91,000 Manpower: 33,000 Germany: 376 Russia: 61

Armament Pts. Destroyed =
Heavy Industry Destroyed =
Factories:
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
AP total:

Stavka OOB: 3,814,000
GHC OOB: 3,233,000

Stavka Loses: 348,000
GHC Loses: 26,000


AGN crosses the Pskov.

[Peltonx]

AGC light resistance, which puts the rest of AGC panzers in a position to help AGN.

[Peltonx]

AGS

[Peltonx]

AGS

[Callistrid]

Pelton, what number of mot/pz divisions you sent south?
I's seems half (around 14-15) of your mobile forces stand that frontline!

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

Pelton, what number of mot/pz divisions you sent south?
I's seems half (around 14-15) of your mobile forces stand that frontline!

It is my standard opening I have been using from 1.03 to present.

Nothing has changed.

I have a boat load of AARs

I do move things around after turn 5 depending on rulesets

[Callistrid]

I curious how will work the new supply effects.

Right now, I believe, the german army must pull north, because, the better supply lines gives better options. On south, where the space is huge, and distant targets stand, it's far more difficult to capture, harm the soviet forces (of the soviet player is experienced).

The 5 southern mot/pz divisions could be railed north maximize the attack power against Leningrad, and try to capture it during the turn 6-8, or positioning the german infantry closer to the city.
T9-10 could be the starting time, when the concentrated german army will try to capture Moscow.

Pelton, if you act with 9 starting mot/pz unit on south, and the T02 units will still move deep south, you will give an excellent strategic condition for soviet side. The red player can reinforce north and center, and retreat on south. If 50 % of german mot divisions chasing, the cunning russian forces, all other fronts will hold the rest of the german forces.

The wall of steel, on difficult terrain, and armies, with 3 sapper, and two RR regiments, could kill any german efforts against Moscow, or Leningrad.
16 divisions splitted by two army groups can't break, or really harm soviet forces.

I've post a simple supply map. The T08 starting situation will be like that. On north, the german units could attack Leningrad in relative good supply, but on south Kharkov, and other major centers are far from german supply sources. And air supplies can't solve southern army group.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

I curious how will work the new supply effects.

Right now, I believe, the german army must pull north, because, the better supply lines gives better options. On south, where the space is huge, and distant targets stand, it's far more difficult to capture, harm the soviet forces (of the soviet player is experienced).

The 5 southern mot/pz divisions could be railed north maximize the attack power against Leningrad, and try to capture it during the turn 6-8, or positioning the german infantry closer to the city.
T9-10 could be the starting time, when the concentrated german army will try to capture Moscow.

Pelton, if you act with 9 starting mot/pz unit on south, and the T02 units will still move deep south, you will give an excellent strategic condition for soviet side. The red player can reinforce north and center, and retreat on south. If 50 % of german mot divisions chasing, the cunning russian forces, all other fronts will hold the rest of the german forces.

The wall of steel, on difficult terrain, and armies, with 3 sapper, and two RR regiments, could kill any german efforts against Moscow, or Leningrad.
16 divisions splitted by two army groups can't break, or really harm soviet forces.

I've post a simple supply map. The T08 starting situation will be like that. On north, the german units could attack Leningrad in relative good supply, but on south Kharkov, and other major centers are far from german supply sources. And air supplies can't solve southern army group.

All good points, but air supply will help as you simply have to move them up rest for a turn+HQBUs.

So a 2nd large offensive can be launched in the south as early as turn 4 or 5.

If you do it right you could HQBU 3 Corp and leave one behind for a turn to HQBU,
there are just as many options as before. Now you have to stop for a turn but huge offensives that push as deep as before are possible.

The center is a wasteland as morveal has pointed out with nothing to be gained until turn 7+ while large offensives in the north and south are possible very early in game as before.

But with new rule sets come surpises.

Its clear that after turn 10+ the south means zip so Russian players can simply pile up units Oka north and both sides will have refit off Oka south.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Pelton


It is my standard opening I have been using from 1.03 to present.

Nothing has changed.

I have a boat load of AARs

I do move things around after turn 5 depending on rulesets

Pelton

I am usually in complete awe at your skills with the axis side but do wonder at the wisdom of this. In an attempt to gain even minimal competence I've been running T1-5 as left hand/right hand exercises over the last set of patch changes. (tend to give up at that stage as once you need to make strategic rather than tactical choices with either side it becomes a bit pointless, but its better than vs AI as you bring a player's mindset to the response each turn).

The changes do seem to demand very different openings, certainly what I felt worked ok with the final 1.07.xx patches now seems pretty poor under 1.08.05/6.

[chaos45]

I think the key thing is, as long as the German player can keep up some pressure in the south they might be able to grab at least some of the industry. An if the Soviet player weakens the south to much might even be able to grab alittle extra by keeping forces there early.

Industry does matter in the long game for the Soviets, as it helps to control how fast the Soviets can switch from defense to offensive operations with decently well equipment units- especially mech/tank/cav and artillery divisions. The Artillery/Rocket divisions are big manpower and armaments sinks - so lower soviet industry means it takes longer to get them to full strength and then harder to maintain the Soviet army at full strength heavy equipment wise.

Also as to Pelton's comment of running being completely historical as a jest to the situation- well just as historical as the Lvov opening would be my counter.

Without all the forces the game allows to be trapped with that opening the Soviets dont have the forces early in the game to fight forward in the south- just screen is all they have the forces for.

[Callistrid]

The german can't rush south. Of course during T02-03, german forces can lock southern industrial areas like Kiev, Odessa, but those are lost industial areas. Good soviet player against good german player will loose 20 ARM and 20 HI, but that's the maximum number.

The T04-05 offense will gain limited succes, if the soviet will prepare to fall back, or hold the river line. And D-town is to far for early attack. Panzers move so deep could be great victory for soviet side.

And Moscov is less important with current rules, but Leningrad is far more. The early, and heavy battles could find that direction.

[hugh04]

Why is Moscow less important and Leningrad more under the current rule set?

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: Pelton


It is my standard opening I have been using from 1.03 to present.

Nothing has changed.

I have a boat load of AARs

I do move things around after turn 5 depending on rulesets

Pelton

I am usually in complete awe at your skills with the axis side but do wonder at the wisdom of this. In an attempt to gain even minimal competence I've been running T1-5 as left hand/right hand exercises over the last set of patch changes. (tend to give up at that stage as once you need to make strategic rather than tactical choices with either side it becomes a bit pointless, but its better than vs AI as you bring a player's mindset to the response each turn).

The changes do seem to demand very different openings, certainly what I felt worked ok with the final
1.07.xx patches now seems pretty poor under 1.08.05/6.

The openings are the same.

The pockets fall hard, for me anyways as I leave the min behind to mop up + the longer they live the better as units return later and later so they cant be used as pickets in south.

You have to pocket as many units as possible early and I still feel the best area is in south to start.

I do switch panzers back to north unlike before once Russain back is broken in south

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: vandev

Why is Moscow less important and Leningrad more under the current rule set?

Moscow is simply not possible to take and has not been (server based games) for a very long time.

Unless of course Russian player is all in in north.

[Peltonx]

Turn 3 GHC Armaments: 80,000 Manpower: 15,000 Germany: 632 Russia: 113

Armament Pts. Destroyed =
Heavy Industry Destroyed =
Factories:
Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
AP total:

Stavka OOB: 3,762,000 -52,000
GHC OOB: 3,300,000 +67,000

Stavka Loses: 718,000 270,000
GHC Loses: 46,000 20,000


AGN AB’s were put in place last turn so 5 divisions, fought then retreated and were filled with fuel.

[Peltonx]

AGC

[Peltonx]

AGS moves several AB’s to the front lines and 2 Corp do HQBU’s

I be able to cross river and get to D-town unless General Mud saves Russia very poor general ship in the south so far.

[Callistrid]

The early mud was really harsh for german side. I believe the next patch must must remove the summer mud condition. If not, the new soviet strategy will be to hold the Prut line avoiding any german RR repair efforts south, even if 10+ unit will die. That gives 3 extra turn, slowing the FBD-s (with mud), what is devastating.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Callistrid

The early mud was really harsh for german side. I believe the next patch must must remove the summer mud condition. If not, the new soviet strategy will be to hold the Prut line avoiding any german RR repair efforts south, even if 10+ unit will die. That gives 3 extra turn, slowing the FBD-s (with mud), what is devastating.

Yes saved your butt, but saved mine vs Brian and Chaos - basicly summer does not start until July now and ended early real game changer + add in 20 MP to rail hex.

Industry has again become window dressing sadly and with that Russians on general offensive by June 42.

Patch heavly favors Russia again back to 1.05 or worse.

[chaos45]

agree on the mud issues----its a massive game effect and having it almost auto drop in July every game is basically just making spring last longer.....the % chance needs to be lowered or have a growing % chance as the summer goes on one of the two.

As ot Germans 1941 MP--- I guess the thought is, is the air resupply nerf enough to limit to fast an advance without the 25 to 20 MP supply change?

I was worried about both being to much of a hit to German 1941 mobility and said as much.