confusing air war statistics

Gary Grigsby’s War in the West 1943-45 is the most ambitious and detailed computer wargame on the Western Front of World War II ever made. Starting with the Summer 1943 invasions of Sicily and Italy and proceeding through the invasions of France and the drive into Germany, War in the West brings you all the Allied campaigns in Western Europe and the capability to re-fight the Western Front according to your plan.

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Rongor
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confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

I found several stuff which leaves me clueless, mostly numbers contradicting each other and so on.
Now I aim to use this thread to work through all these step by step. Everybody knowing something is invited to help and whenever I deem a question answered to satisfaction, I will post the next step.
This may not only help me but also other beginners and even some more experienced players when reviewing their knowledge of the mechanics.

All screenshots originate of the same turn in my ongoing 1st attempt of "Torch to Tunisia".
We will handle the
- Air execution summary,
- Total sorties and losses charts
- Air section of the losses screen
and the
- Logistics phase event log


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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

First question:
How many TOTAL aircraft losses did I suffer in the recent turn?

Looking into the Air execution phase summary, it is 29 losses in 718 total sorties.
Looking into the Air execution totals charts, there were 42 losses in 1328 sorties.
Looking into the Air losses screen, there have been 49 total losses in the current turn.

So which number is the number I am looking for?
Why are there 3 different numbers at all?
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zakblood
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by zakblood »

air combat, ground/ operational then flak, for a wild guess as i haven't read the manual as yet either ([:D][;)])
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

ORIGINAL: zakblood

air combat, ground/ operational then flak, for a wild guess as i haven't read the manual as yet either ([:D][;)])
Hard to tell since the number of 49 isn't broken down into those values on the Air losses screen. The different causes are listed but no numbers are shown for the current turn. So it remains unclear.
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KWG
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by KWG »

The 2 Air execution totals may included only the missions you ordered and not any auto missions.


Is all the data from the end of your half of the turn or from the end of the complete Allied/German turn?

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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

All data was screenshot right after my air execution.

And I think you are right about the Air execution summary. This window only shows sorties and losses triggered by the execution of my air directives and automatic (naval) patrols. Of course if one knows that, the Air execution summary serves is purpose but is still needlessly confusing because you would expect something similar showing the summary of all the air warfare outside your air execution phase (something like a summary of the corresponding enemy air execution phase, which usually triggers additional sorties and/or losses on your side).

So the Air execution summary serves to inform what my AD+automatic patrols had to live through and is unfit for answering the question how man total losses we had.
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Chuske
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Chuske »

I seem to remember that in some places planes destroyed on the ground are not included, while they are in others? If I remember correctly these losses are not included in those at the top of the Air execution phase summary. Tends though to be more of an issue with losses you caused the enemy.

I agree though these totals should more clearly describe what they include

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Helpless
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Helpless »

Looking into the Air execution phase summary, it is 29 losses in 718 total sorties.
Looking into the Air execution totals charts, there were 42 losses in 1328 sorties.
Looking into the Air losses screen, there have been 49 total losses in the current turn.


All of them are correct.

Air execution summary show particular AD execution.
Air execution chart displays totals for the air execution.
Air losses are totals for all kind of losses during both air and ground phases.
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

Air execution summary show particular AD execution.
Air execution chart displays totals for the air execution.
Air losses are totals for all kind of losses during both air and ground phases.
Ok, so I guess the additional losses in the Air losses display also take into account those losses during training phase.

Why aren't these numbers broken down in the Air losses display (as the layout even offers room for this)? Only the scenario totals are listed there. The current turn column is there but unfortunately never shows any numbers. Why is that so? Would be very informative to have those detailed broken down numbers there. This could easily help to interpret all the other "total air losses" amounts better and might even have prevented my question[:)]



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Helpless
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Helpless »

I'm not sure I understand the question. Different totals could be found in the charts and air losses. In most cases they align very well.
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

It is exactly the different totals which confused me, as they are mostly called the same in those charts and lists. There should only be one "total", not three of them. The Air execution summary "total" in fact is not a total, it is only a part of my losses, occurred during my Air execution phase, which is clearly only one half of the air war of a whole turn. It adds to the total. But the player looking for a total stumbling over this amount, might get him confused where the rest has gone.

A summary similar to the Air execution summary but addressing the opposing Air execution might be helpful. Losses suffered during the enemy Air execution phase hurt me the same as in my own Air execution phase. I think therefore they deserve their own summary. This would also help in understanding the losses chart and the losses display, since both of them take both Air execution phases into account.

And I would like to see Naval patrol combats of automatic patrols mentioned in the Air execution summary with the same detail like the AD Naval patrols.
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Helpless
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Helpless »

They are not the same totals even by name.
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

ORIGINAL: Helpless

They are not the same totals even by name.
Especially by name they too easily appear to be the same. Hence the confusion. The same with "total sorties".

Two times we have "total sorties" announced after the headline wording "Air execution".
Image
Image
In fact the first contains only the friendly Air execution, the second contains both phases.

Two times we see a count of Air losses for "Air Execution"
Image
Image
and we have another value for "Air losses"
Image
So we have the combinations
- Air Execution/lost
- Air Execution/Total losses
- Air losses/Total losses
all in fact telling us different stats.
[8|]

Let us agree that those differences in name are quite minor. I now understand their background and have no problem anymore (thanks to you) to interpret them. I only imagine it could be much more easy for beginners to climb the - steep enough - learning curve, if we would face a more clear terminology.
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Helpless »

Most confusing is AD summary as it is not the first such thread on it. I really like to see this kind of data, but it can be redundant for the many players. It is possible to remove or hide it.
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

Personally I welcome all the data. I only then aim to understand all of it exactly. So please excuse my nagging questions [:)][;)]
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by KWG »

ORIGINAL: Helpless

Most confusing is AD summary as it is not the first such thread on it. I really like to see this kind of data, but it can be redundant for the many players. It is possible to remove or hide it.


AAAGGGGHHH! NO! its the best way to see the results of the missions especially bombing.[:D]
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Helpless
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Helpless »

I meant totals, not the AD summaries.
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Rongor »

Why is nothing displayed here? These numbers actually are of interest.
Image
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Helpless
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by Helpless »

They are not tracked on the battle/turn level.
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zakblood
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RE: confusing air war statistics

Post by zakblood »

http://www.twitch.tv/slitherinegroup/v/20057548

does a good job of explaining most stuff and to me is a must to better understand most of the parts in the game imo, same as any of the video's, way easier to learn than by the manuals, quick guides are good mind you
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