Seperate tank battalions?

Share your gameplay tips, secret tactics and fabulous strategies with fellow gamers here.

Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21

chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

Are these units not allowed to become guards?

I have some tank battalions with 30+ and 40+ wins and not a single unit has become guards yet. Most with less than 10 losses so they should have become guards by now unless this type of unit isnt allowed guards conversion.
User avatar
M60A3TTS
Posts: 4495
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:20 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by M60A3TTS »

The battalions will begin to upgrade to regiments in January 1943. Then they can become guards.
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

cool good to know [:)]
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

Wanted to bump this back to the top....as im 2 turns into January 1943 and not a single Separate Tank regiment has upgraded to guards even with 40+ wins and much fewer losses.

User avatar
M60A3TTS
Posts: 4495
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:20 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by M60A3TTS »

Scenario: '1941-45 Campaign'
Soviet Turn 85: 1943-01-28

Logistics Phase Event Log

__________________________________________
UNFROZEN UNITS

6th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 156,61
16th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 106,45
13th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 156,61
31st Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 156,61
34th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 144,71
35th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 144,71
42nd Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 144,71
47th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 106,45
48th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 105,45
49th Rifle Brigade unfrozen at 105,45
Moscow Air Command unfrozen at 106,49

__________________________________________
UNIT TOE(OB) UPGRADES AND RENAMES

269th Sapper Regiment was renamed 62nd Guards Sapper Regiment
304th Sapper Regiment was renamed 63rd Guards Sapper Regiment
282nd Sapper Regiment was renamed 64th Guards Sapper Regiment
119th Separate Tank Regiment was renamed 1st Guards Separate Tank Regiment
115th Separate Tank Regiment was renamed 2nd Guards Separate Tank Regiment
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

My dice rolls must just suck or maybe the earliest date for guards promotion is the last week in January then.
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

Into FEB 1943 not a single sep. tank regiment has upgraded to guard status....whats gives??

As you can see they have a ton of wins at least the best units should be upgrading.

Image
Attachments
Screenshot222.jpg
Screenshot222.jpg (917.32 KiB) Viewed 109 times
User avatar
morvael
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Poland

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by morvael »

Maybe you maxed out your motorized guards percentage with corps?
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

I dont think so, as I have 2 of 6 mech corps as guards.....and 50% of my tank corps are guards.

that should be in the guards % for Corps.......Just curious as I still have tank BNs that havent converted to regiments yet as well, and you can see I have 75 total regiments already and at most 10 or so guard heavy tank regiments.
User avatar
morvael
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Poland

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by morvael »

If you have 50% of tank corps as guards then this may be the answer to your problem. I think the percentage of motorized forces that can be guards is around 35%. And the percentage is calculated from amongst all units, taking their relative sizes into account. But I would have to confirm this at the source. Heavy Tank Regiments are a special case, they get Guards status automatically.
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

Hmm shouldnt the percentage be more by unit size?

To me it doesnt make sense that in effect every tank corps could be guard status but no regiments will ever convert nor would say mech corps.

I also thought Support units were under a different quantification for guards status percentage.

So do sapper regiments then count against infantry divisions for guards status? Just curious......As it doesnt make alot of sense to me.

The qouta should be by unit type/size. Not just lump sum IMO.

Using this criteria couldnt I just build a bunch of tank corps then static mode them wait till all of the tank regiments eventually convert then disband the tank corps? Not saying I would want to do that at this point as its alot of AP but you could.

User avatar
M60A3TTS
Posts: 4495
Joined: Fri May 13, 2011 1:20 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by M60A3TTS »

You have simply not been touched by the Hand of Comrade Stalin

Image
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

For Version WiTE2- please make sure all units get their own guards percentages....

Is completely stupid that the game updated my Tank Corps to guards so none of my seperate Tank regiments get guards status......not a single regiment....

The guards criteria should be unit type/size based not total % of like units.

Thus 33% tank corps, 33% mech corps, 33% seperate tank units.

The reason this is an issue is because it massively reduces maximum CV I can bring to bear since none of my seperate tank regiments will become guards. That means all of my units with 2 attached tank units will never reach full CV potential since the tank support will always be just regular unless I put in guards heavy tank regiments which I can only sustain so many of...esp since production of KVs stops and doest resume as ISs until late 1943.

Also keeps my tank losses higher since those units wont increase in experience/morale like their parent Corps.
User avatar
Gandalf
Posts: 364
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:20 pm
Location: Jefferson City, MO

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by Gandalf »

FWIW,

Since the game limits Guards promotions to certain percentages, it would be a great feature to allow the player the final (approval/say so in a pop-up query box) in promoting specific eligible unit(s) to Guard's status, much like the stamp of Stavka approval.
Member since January 2007 (as Gray_Lensman)

Wargaming since 1971 (1st game Avalon Hill's Stalingrad)

Computering since 1977 (TRS-80) (adhoc programming & game modding ever since)
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

In all honesty from what Ive read guards status didnt usually have alot to do with performance...but units typically did increase in morale when labeled guards and one article I read said that guards got extra pay to.....which would be a good reason for increased morale.

Really the best method would be based on wins the Soviet command gets pool of points like AP and just picks what units they want to become guards as thats pretty much how it was done. Whichever units Stalin felt deserved it or someone put in a good word to Stalin for lol.
User avatar
LiquidSky
Posts: 2811
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:28 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by LiquidSky »



Guard status was more of a way of labeling proven units. Some units didn't have to actually fight to prove themselves since they already had some sort of training....like putting experienced crews into the heavy tank battalions, or paratroopers. They didn't have to prove that they were 'elite' in any way...just prove that they wouldn't break and run at the first sign of combat.

Basically the Russians employed 'on the job' training. If you passed the first hurdle (combat) then the survivors could be considered 'Guard' as the rest were weeded out.

I always thought that a 'guard' unit would be the equivalent of anybody elses trained unit. And a regular unit was one just waiting for the proper training and event to be noticed. While some of the guard units can be considered 'elite' (such as Chuikov's 8th Guard Army) not all guards are elite (just to the Russians :) )
“My logisticians are a humorless lot … they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay.” – Alexander the Great
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

Well thats kinda how it is, guards status is +10 Morale which long run means +10 experience...which doesnt even bring them on par with low quality German units until later in the war. 1943 before they start to equal low quality germans, and 1944 before they start to equal regular german formations and thats mainly because German quality drops and soviet quality increases at the start of the year.

From what Ive seen of how the game handles things a couple points on performance-

Soviet tank/mech corps are way underrated- Im guessing for long term balance. German infantry attempting to hold the Open plains of southern russian shouldnt perform near as well as they do against massed Soviet tank/mech corps attacks. My guess is because the experience factor allows them to kill massive amounts of even decent soviet tanks for low losses to themselves. Attacks of 1,000+ Soviet tanks against German forces with almost no AFVs should be devastating to the defenders....even entrenched the infantry couldnt withstand attacks with that many mainly T34s period.

In real life the panzer divisions were constantly re-deployed to shore up german infantry against Soviet tank attacks...in effect in the game even in 1943 the Germans dont have to do this as infantry divisions can withstand Soviet tanks just as well as panzer divisions since thier CV is all that matters and many german infantry div CV is almost as high or higher than a chunk of the panzer divisions.

I have no problem with the AFV exchange rate when tackling German armor but again I feel German non-armored formations when facing tons of armor esp in 42/43 are abit stronger than they should be. Most likely because mobility isnt factored into combat results at all.
hugh04
Posts: 165
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:48 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by hugh04 »

Actually, I think prepared infantry did very well against massed tanks. Many, many times on the eastern front dug in anti-tank guns devastated tank formations. In one of the many battles around Kharkov, I remember reading that 75-100 T-34's were destroyed in an afternoon near a singe factory. Tanks were not the primary defense against tanks in WW2. My understanding of Soviet tactics was that in the 41-42 period they repeatedly assaulted well prepared strongpoints rather then trying the small maneuver infiltration tactics. Tank heavy attacks were generally not efficient against mid to late war defensive tactics. This was especially true on the eastern front.
chaos45
Posts: 1875
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 10:00 am

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by chaos45 »

A panzer division is more than just tanks-----

In general the game probably rates most German infantry divisions long term abit to highly. As the war drug on lack of replacements/lack of quality replacements especially hampered German infantry divisions as in general the panzer/motorized units got higher quality troops and equipment.

Panzer divisions being more mobile almost all their AT/Artillery being mobile often being critical- even at Kharkov 1942....also lets not forget Kharkov 1942 wont happen with a player playing Soviets just like Stalingrad wont happen for Germans.

Soviet players arent going to throw a brand new formed tank corps/tank army into an assault at 20 EXP like Stalin did at Kharkov 1942. Big difference training makes.

His generals even recommended against the attack due to lack of training and coordination within the tank forces.

As to prepared defense they could do well depending on amount of tanks and amount of approach/attack vectors. Also keep in mind 1942/1943 the Pak 40 still isnt common yet....most German AT is still pak 36/pak38 which are barely effective against T34s at anything other than pointblank range. Even at Kharkov the pak 38 units took some fairly heavy losses from T34s if I remember correctly- it was 88s and heavy artillery at long range over direct gun-sites that did alot of the damage to the Soviet tanks- again due to lack of experience/leadership for the tanks.
Farfarer61
Posts: 713
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:29 pm

RE: Seperate tank battalions?

Post by Farfarer61 »

been awhile but I thought you had to disband the battalions to make room for the tank regiments in your Corps. I will keep an eye out in an AI game currently running. I do seem to be seeing huge numbers of Guards units being created now though. The board is awash in red units. Of course there is the ongoing phenomenon that when you make Guards Corps, you free up space for a host of Guard divisions again as they are no longer counted. The 1942 death-knell-to-the-Axis 155% strength Guards Corps that 'bleed down' only very slowly is still there. Of course veteran Sov players know you can push that even higher by careful merging then building Corps so Million man attacks on one hex can happen - but I digress. Particularly for SU, they have never seen combat, but are awarded the Buff Up. Just wish I could make a Guards Mountain Corps :)
Total chrome, but I now change the colour scheme on all the "naval" brigades, and then again when they make divisions etc. so I can see the " Guards Naval Infantry Corps ". It is not labeled as such of course, but has a nice Blue icon :) Love the game, thanks for the work and my Basement has so much more room now that Fire in East + Scorched Earth Expansion are not permanently set up :)
Post Reply

Return to “The War Room”