And the Winner Is....

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

Moderators: WildCatNL, cbelva, IronManBeta, CapnDarwin, IronMikeGolf, Mad Russian

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Mad Russian
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And the Winner Is....

Post by Mad Russian »

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
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SwampYankee68
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by SwampYankee68 »

12 Kilometers? That's a hypothetical, right? Unless the engagement is on the moon...
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CapnDarwin
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by CapnDarwin »

That would be recon assisted indirect fire with a guided 120mm projectile.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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SwampYankee68
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by SwampYankee68 »

We can do that? [:)] Man, things have changed from when I was in the Guard in the early 80's... In a "C" Echelon unit.. LoL!
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CapnDarwin
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by CapnDarwin »

Folks are testing guided mortar rounds, guided FFAR rockets, etc. Tech is small enough to place brains in almost any projectile these days. Heck, someone tested a guide bullet recently. Not quite "Runaway" level bullets, but getting there.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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Stimpak
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by Stimpak »

I don't know, we have no clue about the Armata's capabilities other than it's new FCS and improved crew safety.

We'll have to assume the same as if the late-model T-72s, T-64s, and T-80s met M1A1s and Leopard 2's, and if T-62s met M-60s - First to see, first to shoot wins.
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bayonetbrant
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by bayonetbrant »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Folks are testing guided mortar rounds

We were testing precision-guided mortar rounds in 1995-96. I was there. Joint test w/ Army & Marines at Ft Hunter Liggett.
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CapnDarwin
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by CapnDarwin »

Brant, true, but those would have been larger laser guided Copperhead rounds from 155mm artillery guns. There are many types of ordnance getting equipped with guidance systems these days.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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bayonetbrant
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by bayonetbrant »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Brant, true, but those would have been larger laser guided Copperhead rounds from 155mm artillery guns. There are many types of ordnance getting equipped with guidance systems these days.

Nope. Copperheads were already fielded by the late 80s. These were laser-guided mortar rounds we were testing in the mid-90s.
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Tazak
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by Tazak »

the brits were trailing LG 81mm mortar rounds in the early 90's...but bean counters said too expensive per round

But back on topic
ORIGINAL: Stimpak

I don't know, we have no clue about the Armata's capabilities other than it's new FCS and improved crew safety.

We'll have to assume the same as if the late-model T-72s, T-64s, and T-80s met M1A1s and Leopard 2's, and if T-62s met M-60s - First to see, first to shoot wins.

Russia has proven capable of producing world class tanks when it wants or needs too, and ready to challenge 'current' thinking too boot, if they have solved their autoloader problems which is likely seeing how they've had 40+ years experience in ripping arms off with the things [;)] and lets face it ever western defence company has been cyber hacked over the last 10 odd years so don't be surprised if there is 'western tech' mixed in there
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JosephM
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by JosephM »

Hmmm. Not sure I see the benefits of the Armata. Indeed the British Army are aiming to update the Challenger 2 and reduce the numbers, but there will be no Challenger 3. They say (and rightly so) that why bother with a tank when Drones are the weapon of the future and a squadron of drones can be used for tank hunting in the future. Any army that tries moving a tank unit around will see it targeted and drones sent. The army of the future will be Infantry, Ships and Drones.
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Stimpak
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by Stimpak »

To be fair, theorists have been writing off the tank ever since it was first seen on the battlefields of France in 1916...
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by TheWombat_matrixforum »

It's an interesting debate. Drones are, at the moment, largely slow and fragile and depend on stealth for survival. Using them as primary anti-tank weapons would obviate a lot of their advantages to survivability presumably. And of course, there is no shortage of lethal anti-aircraft systems out there, and sooner or later these will be able to handle the stealth aspects of drones.

Then there is the issue of data links. In the absence of truly autonomous drones, the command and control links are the most obvious vulnerability, and there are many militaries around the globe with ample experience in EW to make this a matter of concern.

And finally, when was the last true symmetrical combat between modern armored forces? 1973? 1982? And the latter is stretching it. Tanks are damn fine machines for fighting people with, um, no tanks. And they're great against people who have crappy tanks or crappy military systems in general. Admittedly, you don't need top of the line tanks for those sorts of missions, but it can't hurt.

If you're planning on taking on a major power, you'll need tanks even if only to account for those days when bad weather keeps your drones in their hangers....
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Stimpak
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by Stimpak »

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

Then there is the issue of data links. In the absence of truly autonomous drones, the command and control links are the most obvious vulnerability, and there are many militaries around the globe with ample experience in EW to make this a matter of concern.

Which is another huge point and relates to, IIRC (likely not), the Russian philosophy of the future war. Their imagination was that everything and it's mother would have a jammer or be jammed themselves, causing them to forego plenty of otherwise cutting-edge technologies: F&F weapons, UAVs, etc...
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by Tazak »

To say drones are making tanks obsolete is assuming the enemy wont have drones or no way to defeat them, i'd place money that every major country is looking at how to deny the enemy use of drones - how about drone to drone warfare, with nearly every modern army in the world amassing drones it wont be long before drones are armed with AAM and sent out to deny the enemy 'drone space' over the battlefield....
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JosephM
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by JosephM »

Hmm. this didn't post:

Yep, looking at the Locust drone system the US have developed, then that could form an effective anti-drone weapon, but I'm not sure how effective flak is against drones. They've started developing laser systems to target drones, which are effective. Jamming tech or hacking drones is likely to be another important way of stopping them.

I think Drones are less affected by the weather than planes are, and as a relative cost they are cheaper ($98m for an F35, $4.8m for a predator). Then add the increasing stability, speed etc which are coming with new revisions, then they'll only get better for a relatively cheaper cost. And at the moment Drones are meant for stealthy precision strikes. In the event of another global conventional war, then it is likely that there would be as many drone varients as there were tank varients in WW2: at the very least I would guess they'd have recon drones, anti-drone drones, anti-tank drones, drones for attacking buildings, and drones for attacking infantry. You'd then have automated vehicles and infantry support robots, minesweepers, fire suppport, Anti-armour, etc.

Admittedly the Armata T-14 is about $9m per unit, so it is still fairly cheap. Interestingly it is designed to repel fire honed on it. I don't see the immediate death of the tank yet, but I do see more infantry vehicles with powerful guns and automated defences built into them, so the line between tank and mobile infantry will blur, just like the line between missile and jet is being blurred by drones.
kipanderson
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by kipanderson »

Hi,

The Brits are considering a new tanks. Announced at DSEI defence show. So will all others who wish to stay in the game of land warfare.

Active defence systems, including hard-kill, will be standard on all serious AFVs to help against top attack. Alongside the usual protection against direct attack kinetic and HEAT.

But as with protection against kinetic and HEAT AFVs will have to be upgraded now and then. And nothing will work 100% of the times.

It will be interesting to hear the detail of the latest Russian ADS.. but against the current AT missiles there is no reason to think they would not work. They will be designed to protect against single missile threats. But have to be upgraded of course now and then.

All the best,
Kip.

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JosephM
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by JosephM »

Ahhh. Any links to any news about the British tank?
kipanderson
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RE: And the Winner Is....

Post by kipanderson »

Joseph,

will for sure turn up here in some form.

http://www.janes.com/

Is already available on the outrageously expensive paid version of Jane's Defence Weekly.

The "metal boxes.." can last forever, may just upgrade all the subsystems.. armour, gun, add ADS.. and so on.

All the best,
Kip.

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