The air game

The development team behind the award-winning games Decisive Campaigns: From Warsaw To Paris and Advanced Tactics is back with a new and improved game engine that focuses on the decisive year and theater of World War II! Decisive Campaigns: Case Blue simulates the German drive to Stalingrad and into the Caucasus of the summer of 1942, as well as its May preludes (2nd Kharkov offensive, Operation Trappenjagd) and also the Soviet winter counter-offensive (Operation Uranus) that ended with the encirclement of 6th Army in Stalingrad and the destruction of the axis minor armies. With many improvements including the PBEM++ system, this is a release to watch for wargamers!

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ChuckBerger
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The air game

Post by ChuckBerger »

Really enjoying this game very much... except for the air war. I gather I'm not alone here, but it feels really ahistorical, with my Luftwaffe getting squashed.

I've tried attacking Russian cruisers with my stukas and heinkels, but even with no Russian interceptors I lost 40 planes and only sank a single torpedo boat. 40 planes to flak from a few rusty Soviet boats. I was expecting something a little more like Crete - some aircraft losses, but plenty of cruisers and destroyers sent to the bottom.

And then there's the VVS swarms of fighters, decimating any strike I try, and even beating me on my pure fighter sweeps. (Which feel really gamey, by the way)

I understand the designer's position is that you should recon and bomb enemy airfields aggressively. OK, except I'm playing on hardcore recon, which means I would have to recon each individual possible airfield. And with no dedicated recon units. There are literally scores of possible sites... so aside from the sheer tedium of doing that every turn, I wouldn't have any planes left over to run actual ground support missions.

I really would welcome an overhaul of the air game. The ground game here feels really right. The air game feels really wrong.

Perhaps a higher level of abstraction is needed for airfield strikes and air superiority. Ie, send your fighters in to dominate a sector of the front (maybe a 30-hex radius or so). They fight any enemy fighters in the area, with vaguely historical outcomes. ie, the Luftwaffe should be winning most of the time at this stage. If your fighters succeed, then any airstrikes in that radius won't be intercepted.

Same for airfield strikes. They should hit any airfields in a 30-hex radius.

Anyway, I've stopped my first full Case Blue playthrough because I'm so flummoxed by the air game. Any help?
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RCHarmon
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RE: The air game

Post by RCHarmon »

This is a really great game except for the air war and modding difficulties.

The Axis had Stukas bombing Stalingrad and I want to see this in game, but I haven't. There is a mod that has a better Axis air force and adjusted replacement settings, but it also falls short.

These deficiencies has caused me to put down the game. I will not be buying the new release until this game is improved. So, I guess that I will be left behind.

This is terrible because I really like so many aspects of this game.
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sandman2575
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RE: The air game

Post by sandman2575 »

ORIGINAL: RCH

This is a really great game except for the air war and modding difficulties.

The Axis had Stukas bombing Stalingrad and I want to see this in game, but I haven't. There is a mod that has a better Axis air force and adjusted replacement settings, but it also falls short.

These deficiencies has caused me to put down the game. I will not be buying the new release until this game is improved. So, I guess that I will be left behind.

This is terrible because I really like so many aspects of this game.

Agree 100%

I've come back to playing Case Blue after a long hiatus, in anticipation of DC3 Barbarossa's release (hopefully soon-ish). But the inept way the game models the air-war significantly hampers my enjoyment of this otherwise great game.

I get to the point where I try to use the Luftwaffe as little as possible -- which is completely ahistorical. In July '42 Germany had more or less uncontested air superiority in Ukraine. The VVS was a shambles and the Luftwaffe was able to act with relative impunity. But in this game, the Soviet air forces might as well be the RAF fighting the Battle of Britain. Even when I escort airstrike missions with an entire Jagdgeschwader, I *routinely* take significant losses in fighters. Soviet fighters swarm such attacks like angry hornets. It is complete rubbish.

I've heard the "you have to scout and destroy the VVS on the ground" advice, and it simply does not work in practice. Your air forces simply do not have enough action points to both (1) recon and then (2) strike enemy air bases, especially since you generally have only blind guesses as to where those bases are. The absurd limitations on where you base your air units only make matters worse, in terms of limiting the AP you have available to recon, since your units are often based far from the front, and newly taken towns require several turns to 'repair' so that they can be fully functioning air bases again. (And with all these artificial limitations to begin with, why on earth can you not base planes at 'major' cities??)

The Luftwaffe should be the German player's ace-up-the-sleeve, but in this game, it winds up being almost a handicap. It's truly regrettable. I just hope DC3 doesn't wind up making the same mistake.
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Vic
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RE: The air game

Post by Vic »

Hi all,

Just wanted to say that I am reading this thread. Some sort of adjustment might indeed be necc. with so many similar experiences.

I am planning to eventually upgrade Case Blue to the newer version of the engine being developed for DC: Barbarossa.

I am thinking of 'slightly' tuning down Soviet air capabilities and adding seperate and dedicated recon units to the german OOB.

The reason I have been hesitant is that I managed quite well to keep the red airforce surpressed during my own PBEM games.

In the meantime - Are there any German players out there who managed to keep the soviet airforce in check?

Best wishes,
Vic

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics
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sandman2575
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RE: The air game

Post by sandman2575 »

Great to hear that Case Blue may get upgraded to the new engine.

I do think DC Case Blue as it now stands is badly in need of fine-tuning where the air war is concerned.

Adding dedicated recon air units would be a good step, but more has to be done. One basic improvement would be to allow air units to be based at all towns and cities, including major cities. I find the restriction to 'towns only' completely baffling (and really, air units should be able to be based on any clear-terrain hex, in similar fashion to GG's War in the East -- but if we have to stick to the 'air bases only based in towns' rule, then *please* add the cities too. It's just too restrictive otherwise).

I think more needs to be done than 'slightly' tuning down the Red Air Force at the beginning of the Case Blue operation. Right now, it's just *far* too effective in intercepting Luftwaffe airstrikes. Consider this - in July '42 along the Voronezh front, "Within 26 days, the Soviets lost 783 aircraft from the 2nd, 4th, 5th and 8th Air Armies, compared to a German total of 175" -- that's more than a 4:1 ratio, VVS losses to Luftwaffe.

The Luftwaffe in July '42 in this game is *nowhere* near this effective and deadly. Initiative, experience, and morale should be significantly lowered for VVS units, and should be increased for LW (also, the OOB needs to be fixed, as someone modded it, to make sure there are no more 109 Emils, and that all are 109Fs - this should be an official fix). Russian air forces should improve gradually as the operation wears on, but especially in the beginning, the summer of '42, VVS needs to be nerfed considerably.

It also shouldn't be such a mystery where air units are based. Right now it's possible to recon 'likely' airbase towns and come up empty. You just don't have enough Action Points to sufficiently recon *and* launch airstrikes against suspected airbases.

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RCHarmon
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RE: The air game

Post by RCHarmon »

Vic,

Those changes would be very positive moves. I really hope they get implemented.

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RCHarmon
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RE: The air game

Post by RCHarmon »

Vic,

I would love to get into this game again. I have played the AI out and I need human player competition. Hard core recon rules are great, but some recon planes are needed.

The air war needs to be adjusted. It is just to nuts to play another human with the current air war set up.

I know you are busy, but I know there are players still playing DC:Case Blue.

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jimkehn
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RE: The air game

Post by jimkehn »

While I don't disagree with the guys who say the VVS is overpowered, I think part of the issue is playing the AI. I noticed I, as Germans do very little damage to Russian planes, and get murderated in the air. But then when I play the Russians and out number the germans in fighters in a battle by three to one I don't shoot any air units down but lose plenty. I wonder if there is something in the AI code that gives the AI wayyyyy too much of an advantage. I have not played PBEM so I don't know how it works playing a human. I might ttry it with me playing both sides just to find out.
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demyansk
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RE: The air game

Post by demyansk »

I like this game and would like the option to allow a commander to control the Luftwaffe. I like games with the option to play a certain division or section and give general instructions to the other units.
I like the way dc3 allows an assistant to make decisions. It's still a great game and one of these days I'll tackle the campaign game.
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jimkehn
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RE: The air game

Post by jimkehn »

Well there is a LOT to like about the series. I love the card system for your HQ's. GIves them a purpose other than pushin supply. I have been trying what was suggested in other threads regarding air, and strafing the enemy airbase. However I am playing the Kharkov 42 scenario and so it is not a real test as I believe all the air are in one town and I know where they are lol. But I think by attacking them it uses up most of their AP and they don't seem to be intercepting as often. Also I think on normal, the AI is given TOO much of an advantage....the AI doesn't seem to do too bad a job on its own at leas in the Kharkov scenario. Still would be more fun playing a human.
Chernobyl
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RE: The air game

Post by Chernobyl »

How exactly do you determine where the enemy airbases are? Even when I do a recon mission where I KNOW the enemy has a base, the result is that the hex appears empty or I locate a mystery (question mark) enemy unit.

It seems that a lot of the air war is attacking their air bases before they attack yours. I can get pretty good results attacking airbases no matter which side I am.
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jimkehn
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RE: The air game

Post by jimkehn »

Liebestod as I understand it you have to build "Recon Points" in a hex. Ground units exert a sort of "recon ZOC" in adjacent hexes but they aren't always accurate. I am thinking (but not completely sure) that you may need to fly more than one recon in your situation to build more recon points in the hex?
Chernobyl
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RE: The air game

Post by Chernobyl »

Yeah that's a guess I had too. I'll try it out. Still it seems like if you have to send 2 air missions just to search one hex for an air base then you've already failed to use your aircraft efficiently.
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jimkehn
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RE: The air game

Post by jimkehn »

true....given the small number of square miles in a hex.
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