Mark 17 Depth Charge

[jmolyson]

I am unable to find the Mark 17 375lb depth charge in the stock database. This was the primary aircraft-delivered
ASW weapon for much of the war. Aircraft such as the PBY and OS2U can be tasked for ASW, but they carry 100 or 250 bombs in lieu of this weapon.

How do we correct this inaccuracy? If I add the weapon using the air-delivered Mark 17 mine (a weapon with same charge)as a base, will the game apply accurate effects against submarines?

Your thoughts and suggestions will be appreciated.

Joe Molyson

[Terminus]

It will not work. Aircraft can't drop ASW weapons.

[Terminus]

See also the thread about this in the main AE forum.

[witpqs]

You can find various posts on using the scenario editor or on dumping the scenario files to CSV files and editing them in a spreadsheet like LibreOffice or Excel.

Basically, you can take advantage of some advanced capabilities of the game engine to fine tune what ordnance is carried for which missions.

The thing to be careful of is balancing the stats you give to the ordnance with the game - don't be fooled into thinking that the real life stats transfer 1 to 1 into the game engine. You might well get a terribly out of balance effect on game play. The current stats for things in the game (while not perfect) are balanced against each other. The developers puts loads of effort into that both before release and even years later with updates and scenario mods (like the DaBabes scenarios).

Posted by Treespider 2012-09-23 09:33 (Edited by witpqs to add filter 64.)

One item all of you serious modders should be aware of...is the use of the Filter for aircraft loads...fully implemented in the 1117 Beta.

By using a filter you can specify which load is carried for which mission.

Filter values are:
2 - used for naval attacks
4 - alternate for naval attack (like torp replacement)
8 - used for land (ground) attack
16 - used for port attack
32 - used for AF attack
64 - used for ASW attack

See accompanying .jpg example from the scenario editor.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It will not work. Aircraft can't drop ASW weapons.

Well - the name of the device can be anything, it's just stats he would be entering in the scenario database. It would have ot be a "bomb" type device of course.

[witpqs]

After looking through the similar current thread on the main forum and following a couple of Alfred's links, filter code 64 is for ASW missions. I am editing the above post.

[witpqs]

Here is a condensed version of the text.

Filter for Aircraft Ordnance Loads

Filter values are:
2 - Used for naval attack missions.
4 - Alternate for naval attack missions (like torp replacement).
8 - Used for land (ground) attack missions.
16 - Used for port attack missions.
32 - Used for AF attack missions.
64 - Used for ASW missions.

See accompanying .jpg example from the scenario editor.

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It will not work. Aircraft can't drop ASW weapons.

Well - the name of the device can be anything, it's just stats he would be entering in the scenario database. It would have ot be a "bomb" type device of course.

Which is obviously what I meant. What's entered in the text field for name is meaningless.

[jmolyson]

Aircraft can't drop ASW weapons?????

Joe

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: AYAAD

Aircraft can't drop ASW weapons?????

Joe

In real life aircraft can, but the game engine defines them as bombs. Remember, this is a highly detailed game, not a real life sim.

[witpqs]

...and even so-called sims have great limits, otherwise they would *be* the real thing. The more you read around here the more you will pick up about how the game engine does things in general. They will not release many details and of course the game code itself is private so we can gain useful understandings but not exact workings.

Which is plenty good enough, really.

FYI, the game uses the stats in the scenario database along with the in-game situation (more on that in a moment) to arrive at if/when/how often a weapon gets to fire, whether or not it hit, and if it hit what damage it did to the target.

The "in-game situation" that I referred to a moment ago is vast and complex. It includes stats for leaders and units themselves (land, ship, individual pilots) and modifiers about them like fatigue, morale, etc., and things about the situation: weather, range, previous detection level, current detection level (maybe either one assisted by radar) altitude, armor, angle of attack, and on and on.

Strongly advise that you search in this (mods) sub-forum for many old threads where some of the developers who made later mods and updates to the game show how they calculated the various stats used for various weapons.

[Barb]

Game uses bombs as regular ASW weapon... i.e. just consider them to be air-dropped DCs...

IRL planes were sent on general search equipped either with
- regular GP bombs, usually instantaneous or very short delay fuse (which exploded upon impact) - for use against surface targets (like cargo ships, barges, light combatants, surfaced subs)
- Depth charges with shallow settings (in war changed from 100 feet to 25 feet) - which can be used not only for diving submarines, but put close against hull of the ship can do considerable damage too...

Wiki on operational research:

Other work by the CC-ORS indicated that on average if the trigger depth of aerial-delivered depth charges (DCs) were changed from 100 feet to 25 feet, the kill ratios would go up. The reason was that if a U-boat saw an aircraft only shortly before it arrived over the target then at 100 feet the charges would do no damage (because the U-boat wouldn't have had time to descend as far as 100 feet), and if it saw the aircraft a long way from the target it had time to alter course under water so the chances of it being within the 20-foot kill zone of the charges was small. It was more efficient to attack those submarines close to the surface when the targets' locations were better known than to attempt their destruction at greater depths when their positions could only be guessed. Before the change of settings from 100 feet to 25 feet, 1% of submerged U-boats were sunk and 14% damaged. After the change, 7% were sunk and 11% damaged. (If submarines were caught on the surface, even if attacked shortly after submerging, the numbers rose to 11% sunk and 15% damaged). Blackett observed "there can be few cases where such a great operational gain had been obtained by such a small and simple change of tactics".

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It will not work. Aircraft can't drop ASW weapons.

Nonsense. They work fine - since Matrix added the ASW code to bomb codes (64)

See

Level I Update 1.13
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3 ... file%2cmsi

[jmolyson]

I agree with El Cid, I did my own mod and "built" Mark 17 air-dropped
depth charges using GP bomb characteristics of equal warhead weight and the weapons
code 64. They work great.

Why the original game failed to include air-dropped ASW as a stock weapon escapes me.
They were deployed in great numbers and sunk a number of Axis submarines.

Joe Molyson

[Dili]

I think code 64 only says it will be employed for ASW. Was there any code changes that we can use DC with 64?

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: Terminus

It will not work. Aircraft can't drop ASW weapons.

Nonsense. They work fine - since Matrix added the ASW code to bomb codes (64)

See

Level I Update 1.13
https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=3 ... file%2cmsi

More snake oil charm from el Cid.

There is no "ASW code to bomb codes (64)". To claim there is, is to prominently display one's ignorance of how the internal AE combat routines operate.

I've written how to fudge the issue. Witpqs in this thread has commented on how it can be done. ASW devices (IOW depth charges) are device type #20 in the code. Terminus stated that ASW devices (IOW device type #20) cannot be air dropped. There is no internal game code which recognises dropping a device type #20 (IOW a dedicated ASW weapon such as a depth charge). The internal combat routines for ASW missions conducted by air or naval assets are different. They do not cross over.

That it is possible to fudge the solution does not invalidate what Terminus stated nor validate el Cid's statement. Fudging involves much more than just fiddling with the "name" of a device, which is why I have said on many occasions, it is very easy to "stuff up" use of the alternate bomb loads.

In this world, some people are natural born salesmen. They are very good at spruiking what they are "selling". Sometimes the product they sell is good and worth buying, sometimes it is totally useless and fleeces gullible "purchasers". Sometimes there is nothing particularly good or bad about the product or the sales pitch itself but it appeals to uncritical and undemanding purchasers who don't do their own due diligence before purchase.

El Cid is a tireless spruiker of his product. He has no knowledge of the internal AE routines and every time he comments on the internal AE routines he misrepresents what they do.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Dili

I think code 64 only says it will be employed for ASW. Was there any code changes that we can use DC with 64?

You are correct Dili. The alternate bomb filter 64 simply tells the internal AE air combat routines to use the weapon in that slot with that filter on an ASW air mission. There has not been any code changes which allow a device type 20 (IOW a DC) to be air dropped and work against an enemy submarine. Nor will there ever be any such code change to allow air dropped device type 20 weapons.

What you are seeing is the usual misrepresentation of how the internal AE code operates from someone who has no access to the game code but is very tireless in spruiking their own product.

Alfred

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: AYAAD

I agree with El Cid, I did my own mod and "built" Mark 17 air-dropped
depth charges using GP bomb characteristics of equal warhead weight and the weapons
code 64. They work great.

Why the original game failed to include air-dropped ASW as a stock weapon escapes me.
They were deployed in great numbers and sunk a number of Axis submarines.

Joe Molyson

Nor does AE have a requirement for troops to drink water. That of course is a very serious omission by the devs as it is impossible for a human to survive more than about 3 days without water, let alone the potential 1634 days of the Grand Campaign without any water to drink whatsoever. Plenty of historical examples where troops surrendered even though they still had bullets and food but no water.

Obviously any game which doesn't include water is just not worth playing and is evidence that the game designers are incompetent. There can be no excuse for leaving out water.

My recommendation is to start coding your own AE II from scratch. Include your air dropped ASW weapons. Plus water, quinine tablets, railway running stock, a dynamic evolving map, strict chain of command, a new paradigm for Soviet activation, complete Allied control of their own industrial production, actual ship design and building capability, the use of concrete and steel in building infrastructure, to mention only a very few of the oh so many things which were left out. You will always find one individual who demands that something indispensable has been left out of AE. So by coding from scratch your own AE II you will able to avoid making all the mistakes which the incompetent AE designers left out for no valid reason.

Or you could just be humble and accept that the devs had severe limitations on their freedom of action and had to make judgment calls.

Alfred

[wdolson]

It is true that AE was built on top of an existing game engine and we had to accept some limitations to the engine. I'm not sure what the reference to "64" is. Device 64 is a 3in/50 M 1922 Gun in the stock devices.

For the ASW air mission, the game is coded to use an abstracted depth bomb. The code tries to emulate them as closely as possible within the game code. The load outs for aircraft designated in the editor is limited to a standard and extended range load out. Specialty missions like ASW are abstracted. I don't recall the details at the moment, it's been a while since I looked at the code.

Bill

[Dili]

64 is the code number you put in editor in front of a specific aircraft weapon loadout(must be an aircraft bomb) to be employed for ASW mission.


These are the missions available.
0 = all
1 = city attack
2 = naval attack
4 = naval attack alternate
8 = ground attack
16 = port attack
32 = airfield attack
64 = ASW