Becoming an Expert, Kind of...

[Mad Russian]

Most people that do scenarios or campaigns base them on something. Whether that's a favorite situation, a favorite unit, a favorite place, a battle they read about...something.

If your battles, scenarios, campaigns are fictional you, the designer, are the automatic expert on it. You created it and it's your baby.

If the battles, scenarios, campaigns are based on a historical event, then research plays a part in how accurate you get it. I have, until FPC:RS, only created historically based scenarios, campaigns in my past. Those have been generally well accepted because of the level of research I do. My research has been good in the past mainly because of the library I have to support my habit. In today's world the internet helps as well.

In the past I've stayed away from 3 battles/campaigns because no matter how much research you do on them someone will tell you that you're wrong because of "<fill in the blank with any reason you like>".

The three I stayed away from were:

Stalingrad
Market Garden
Kursk

They draw so much attention and so much has been written about them that a lot of people feel they are experts on the subjects. So, I let them be.

One small fly in the ointment for me was Kursk. I could never really match the actions of the rest of 1943 with the totally smashed German armored forces view that was prevalent. But hey, you like that story I'm good.

You tell me that the British were out of 6 pounder ammo in Arnhem 3 hours after they landed, I'm good.

You tell me that the Russians counterattacked on a given day, at given place in Stalingrad, even though there is no record of that on either side, I'm good.

Because I have better things to do with my time than argue with people over whose has the best research.

I make my scenarios/campaigns based on the best research I can do on that fight at the time I create it.

It's all good. I make what I like and if I think it's really good I share it with the rest of you.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

Which brings us to the reason for this thread.

Not often have I seen a major historical event opened up like is currently happening. For roughly 6 decades the Soviets told a lie. It was a believable lie so it went unreported for the most part.

That lie was that the German armored formations were destroyed in a huge tank battle at Kursk.

There are a couple of reasons for the lie. Both very good.

1) The commander of the 5th Guards Tank Army lost is command in a single day. Stalin ordered him shot. So, he and some of his friends, created a huge victory and saved his life.

2) The Soviets needed a big victory and at Kursk they got a victory that they turned into a big victory.



Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

This all started back with the printing of a book called "Last Victory in Russia: The SS-Panzerkorps and Manstein's Kharkov Counteroffensive, February-March 1943" by George W. Nipe Jr. which was about Manstein's Backhand Maneuver at Kharkov. While I stayed away from the 3 aforementioned battles/campaigns I'm an absolute junkie when it comes to the fighting around Kharkov and Manstein's battles. This book was TREMENDOUS!!![&o]

So, when in 1996 he published a book called "Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943" I instantly bought it as well. Again, this book was TREMENDOUS!!! [&o]

It also started the death of the Kursk myth that had lasted for almost 60 years!

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

"Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943", hit the Soviet myth with a hammer and it cracked down the middle. NO problem, what about all those other books on the Kursk that say there was this huge tank battle and the Germans lost hundreds of tanks and their back was broken. We still believe.

Problem, Mr Nipe went to the archives and pulled German daily tank records and operational reports. Those were touched on in "Decision in the Ukraine: German Panzer Operations on the Eastern Front, Summer 1943" but it wasn't an in your face presentation.

He saved that for "Blood, Steel, and Myth: The II.SS-Panzer-Korps and the Road to Prochorowka". This is a real history book. Well researched and well written. BUT this is all German records. It doesn't tell the Soviet side of the story. To do research you try as hard as you can to get both sides of the story.

Enter Valeriy Zamulin, as a former Deputy Director and Director of Research at the Prokhorovka Battlefield Park Museum, 1996-2009, he is well placed to give us the Soviet side of this story and published his own work on the Soviet actions in the battle. "Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative" is as informative and ground breaking as Mr. Nipe's book. Together these two books rewrite the events as we know them of what happened on the southern flank of the attack on Kursk in July 1943.

But Mr. Nipe published two books on the subject. Now so has Mr. Zamulin. His second book is a complete rarity. A book of photographs, with captions, taken by Soviet combat photographers. This is rarely seen in Western literature. This book, "The Battle of Kursk 1943: The View through the Camera Lens" continues to open the door and shed more light on a struggle that has captured the interest of historians for more than 7 decades now.

So, if you were ever interested in viewing a battle from both sides this one may now be for you. You could become an expert with all the latest, accurate, information about the fight.

Kind of....because when you do research nothing ever lines up exactly and you will still have to make best guess estimates at times. That's okay. The more information you have the better your guesses will be!

Hope this helps.


Good Hunting.

MR

[SwampYankee68]

Do you have a recommendation for a good book on Barbarosa as a whole operation?

One from me: Anthony Beevor's Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege.

Been a while since I read it, but it did a good job of telling the battle's history from the perspective of both sides (a little more from the German side IIRC).

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: Swamp_Yankee

Do you have a recommendation for a good book on Barbarosa as a whole operation?

David M. Glantz is considered the best western expert of the Eastern Front. His latest books are few volumes dedicated to the battle of Smolensk. They are called "Barbarossa Derailed". His works are very informative but I find them unreadable due to the dry style and poor editing. If you're looking for something devoted to Barbarossa as a whole operation, then Glantz's "Operation Barbarossa: Hitler's Invasion of Russia 1941" is pretty accessible and well written.

[ivanov]

I guess the good times for researching Eastern Front are over...

Sir John Keegan and Antony Beevor banned in Russia

Apparently they are spreading Nazi propaganda...

[SwampYankee68]

ORIGINAL: katukov

I guess the good times for researching Eastern Front are over...

Sir John Keegan and Antony Beevor banned in Russia

Apparently they are spreading Nazi propaganda...

Wow... Just Wow. How sad and disturbing.

[76mm]

I think the best book on Barbarossa is Barbarossa Unleashed by Luther; Glantz's book is also good.

Regarding this:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
The commander of the 5th Guards Tank Army lost is command in a single day. Stalin ordered him shot. So, he and some of his friends, created a huge victory and saved his life.

I've read quite a bit about Kursk and haven't seen that Stalin ordered Rotmistrov shot. What is your source for that?

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I've read quite a bit about Kursk and haven't seen that Stalin ordered Rotmistrov shot. What is your source for that?

I believe it's in, "Demolishing the Myth: The Tank Battle at Prokhorovka, Kursk, July 1943: An Operational Narrative". Been awhile since I was in that books so I would have to check again to make sure.

Good Hunting.

MR

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
I would have to check again to make sure.

Thanks, but I wouldn't bother...

[KEYSTONE0795]

Does this thread indicate a Flashpoint Campaigns version of Kursk in the future? [&o]

[CapnDarwin]

Anything in the future is possible. Right now it's a discussion on the difference of looking at historical research where sources vary in the facts compared to doing hypothetical engagements with "proper history". Both are very challenging in their own right.

[KEYSTONE0795]

Thanks Capn.

Are you still involved with LnL's World at War series? That series has been an inspiration for the rudimentary scenarios I've constructed for Flashpoint Campaigns.

[CapnDarwin]

No LnL work these days. Way too busy with Red Storm and its follow ons. I do have a few board game ideas that are slowly taking shape, but life right now does not leave me enough time to do things quicker. [;)]

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: KEYSTONE0795

Does this thread indicate a Flashpoint Campaigns version of Kursk in the future? [&o]

YES!!!!

Absolutely!!!!

How far in the future is the question....

Will it show up before Bagration, Stalingrad, Typhoon, Normandy, Reichswald, Ruhr encirclement, 1973 Golan Heights, Falklands, Vietnam......???!!!! [8D]



Good Hunting.

MR

[KEYSTONE0795]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: KEYSTONE0795

Does this thread indicate a Flashpoint Campaigns version of Kursk in the future? [&o]

YES!!!!

Absolutely!!!!

How far in the future is the question....

Will it show up before Bagration, Stalingrad, Typhoon, Normandy, Reichswald, Ruhr encirclement, 1973 Golan Heights, Falklands, Vietnam......???!!!! [8D]



Good Hunting.

MR

Mr Mad Russian - you are a war game tease! My heart is a' flutter reading your post. I hope I live to see the day all those battles are covered.

[76mm]

I'm all for this engine moving to East Front WWII at some point, but please move Kursk to lower on the list--it has been done to death and frankly is not a very interesting battle to begin with.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I'm all for this engine moving to East Front WWII at some point, but please move Kursk to lower on the list--it has been done to death and frankly is not a very interesting battle to begin with.

You make an interesting comment for someone showing your Avatar.[&:]

In all honesty I could say that about most battles at this point. There are few battles that haven't been "done to death", as you put it.

Which ever direction we choose to go when we move to the 'beginning' (Anything from WW2 until 1973 AIW) will have been done before. Except that:

- it won't have been done using our system.
- very likely won't have had the scenarios done by our team members.
- very likely won't have our point of view applied to the conflict.

So, even if we do every single battle and campaign of WW2 next, which we won't, they would still have a fresh look to them from those standpoints alone.

Actually, I've not seen many computer games on Kursk. Which ones were you referring to?

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: KEYSTONE0795

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: KEYSTONE0795

Does this thread indicate a Flashpoint Campaigns version of Kursk in the future? [&o]

YES!!!!

Absolutely!!!!

How far in the future is the question....

Will it show up before Bagration, Stalingrad, Typhoon, Normandy, Reichswald, Ruhr encirclement, 1973 Golan Heights, Falklands, Vietnam......???!!!! [8D]



Good Hunting.

MR

Mr Mad Russian - you are a war game tease! My heart is a' flutter reading your post. I hope I live to see the day all those battles are covered.

I hope I live to see the day all those battles/campaigns are covered by our system as well.

Good Hunting.

MR