New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

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AndyG1
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by AndyG1 »

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

AndyG1: About Vettel vs Hamilton: "He'll (Vettel) have a long way to go to do what Hamilton did in his win tallies."...I assume you are ignoring stats and are focused on the quality of the teams? When Hamilton was with McLaren (teamed with Alonso) he had a car that was capable of winning. Why would Vettel have to go down the path of winning in a bad car just to prove something? Statistically Vettel is the better driver, especially in the ultimate stat: 4-2 in championships.

Absolutely ignoring stats. I've been watching F1 since 1976, and totally understand that if you get in the best car your chances of winning Championships increases massively. So what you NEED to look at is those drivers getting race wins in not so good cars or even drivers in the same team and supposedly the same car.

Now Cartel did have the best car in the 4 seasons he won Championships. The press always told me he was better than Senna and Schumy etc etc, at which point I laughed my head off when he got blown away by Ricciardo in the same car in 2014. Ricciardo took tOOK THE 'MICK' out of him all season long, that pass at Monza when he went outside, braked slightly, swapped sides and outbraked him on the inside - wow! Made Vettel look ordinary - at which point Vettel wasn't in the best of moods and always looked miffed.

Do you dislike Rosberg or Vettel or any driver because they look miffed at being beaten? Because they all do. They thin they are the best so they'rd not going to be jumping for joy when they lose.

Point is, not in the best car he got destroyed by a driver who nearly didn't get the seat.

Now look at the likes of Senna, Hamilton, Alonso, Mansell - a lot more WINS when not in the best car. That is the real stat.

Now in 2015 Vettel is showing he can do it when not in the best car. That is what I'm waiting to see in the long term.

On another note, I can vouch for dual citizenship. Born and raised in UK, left in2007, Aussie citizen in 2015. 2 passports, and I'm rooting for England in the cricket right now. Just because you move somewhere else it doesn't mean you lose your identity - I'm British, end of!
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

Yeah, Hamilton likely will never be seen in the top two of all time...not even the top 5...of course he is still racing, so anything is possible. I suppose Fangio doesn't count?

AndyG1: You have to define "not so good cars"...if you mean everything after the constructors champion, then be aware that some of the #2 constructors were very competitive to the eventual champion. For Hamilton...2007, 2008, 2010, and 2012 he was in a car that was just as good or very close to equal as the Constructors Champion. If you are going to compile stats that way, then exclude the #2 constructor if the points are close, and see what you come up with. I would not say that Hamilton was in a "not so good car" in 2007, 08, 10, 12. His other years he had a total of 6 wins, half of that in 2011 which was a pretty decent car as well.
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: AndyG1

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

AndyG1: About Vettel vs Hamilton: "He'll (Vettel) have a long way to go to do what Hamilton did in his win tallies."...I assume you are ignoring stats and are focused on the quality of the teams? When Hamilton was with McLaren (teamed with Alonso) he had a car that was capable of winning. Why would Vettel have to go down the path of winning in a bad car just to prove something? Statistically Vettel is the better driver, especially in the ultimate stat: 4-2 in championships.

Do you dislike Rosberg or Vettel or any driver because they look miffed at being beaten? Because they all do. They thin they are the best so they'rd not going to be jumping for joy when they lose.

Now in 2015 Vettel is showing he can do it when not in the best car. That is what I'm waiting to see in the long term.
warspite1

Re the first point 100% agree. One of the reasons I never really took to David Coulthard is the German Grand Prix in 1995. He should have won that race but compounded the fact he didn't with a line that was just unacceptable - particularly coming from a young driver at the start of his career.

He said something like "I guess Schumacher wanted it more than me today". Just NO. Can you imagine a Nige or Lewis or Vettel or Alonso or ANY of the Grand Prix champions saying such a thing? When they lose they HURT.

Re the second point. Again I completely agree. The big question mark over Vettel is the quality of the competition he has faced - and then this doubt was compounded by what happened vs Ricciardo.

I think what he is starting to show at Ferrari is that edge that the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Alono and Lewis have - that ability to take a team and a car beyond where it has a right to be. The season so far has told us much about Vettel and its all to the positive as far as his reputation is concerned.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

AndyG1: You have to define "not so good cars"...if you mean everything after the constructors champion, then be aware that some of the #2 constructors were very competitive to the eventual champion. For Hamilton...2007, 2008, 2010, and 2012 he was in a car that was just as good or very close to equal as the Constructors Champion. If you are going to compile stats that way, then exclude the #2 constructor if the points are close, and see what you come up with. I would not say that Hamilton was in a "not so good car" in 2007, 08, 10, 12. His other years he had a total of 6 wins, half of that in 2011 which was a pretty decent car as well.
warspite1

I've just got around to looking at this and thought I would glance at one season and take it from there. I started with 2012 and that is where I ended.

You say that some #2 cars were very competitive to the eventual champion and that for Lewis the 2012 car was just as good or very close to equal as the constructors champion.

Have a look at that season. McLaren were not even 2nd - they were 3rd.
McLaren, despite having Jenson and Lewis driving, AND Webber having a pretty atrocious season in the best car, were almost 100 points away from the Red Bull. If Webber was up to the job that gap would have been much bigger.


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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Gilmer
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Gilmer »

Re the second point. Again I completely agree. The big question mark over Vettel is the quality of the competition he has faced - and then this doubt was compounded by what happened vs Ricciardo.

I think what he is starting to show at Ferrari is that edge that the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Alono and Lewis have - that ability to take a team and a car beyond where it has a right to be. The season so far has told us much about Vettel and its all to the positive as far as his reputation is concerned.

I would not put too much in to Ricciardo doing better than Vettel one season. I think we all know if you don't like the way a car feels, you can not be competitive. I think Vettel hated the way the car felt and that was why he was having trouble. I think he even mentioned several times he hated the way it felt.

I agree with everything else you said about Vettel. He is showing a lot of consistency this year.
"Venimus, vidimus, Deus vicit" John III Sobieski as he entered Vienna on 9/12/1683. "I came, I saw, God conquered."
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

2012 constructors points:
Red Bull: 460 (won 8 races)
Ferrari: 400 (won 3 races)
McLaren: 378 (won 7 races)
Lotus: 303

Then it falls off quite a bit after that with Mercedes at 142. If you look at the season as a whole, there were 3 races McLaren won where the team mate retired from the race...2 races McLaren got 2nd and the team mate retired, a 4th/Ret and a 10th/Ret. Those are a lot of missed points with the potential for the other driver to have a podium finish. There was also a 1/16, and a 3/14.

McLaren most definitely had a competitive car in 2012. That being said, I disagree with trying to find some kind of metric (because you cant) to judge a driver in a "bad" car vs the team that wins the Constructor's Championship. You still have to race the race...there are lots of things that can go wrong even when you are lapping the back of the field. The only true measurement is the ultimate result.
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
AndyG1
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by AndyG1 »

Senna, Donington Park, 1993. That's how to win in an inferior car. Vettel did that for Torso Rosso at Monza for his first win. The foundations are here, but he isn't no Senna:).

Sorry for the typos in previous posts, it's mobile typing - lol
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

Re the second point. Again I completely agree. The big question mark over Vettel is the quality of the competition he has faced - and then this doubt was compounded by what happened vs Ricciardo.

I think what he is starting to show at Ferrari is that edge that the greats like Senna, Schumacher, Alono and Lewis have - that ability to take a team and a car beyond where it has a right to be. The season so far has told us much about Vettel and its all to the positive as far as his reputation is concerned.

I would not put too much in to Ricciardo doing better than Vettel one season. I think we all know if you don't like the way a car feels, you can not be competitive. I think Vettel hated the way the car felt and that was why he was having trouble. I think he even mentioned several times he hated the way it felt.

I agree with everything else you said about Vettel. He is showing a lot of consistency this year.
warspite1

The top racing drivers - and we have not been talking about mere Grand Prix winners and even some World Champions - we are talking about the best of the best, are judged on their careers. So if we go directly to the top, Ayrton Senna, and we look at his entire F1 career then what do we see? The odd mistake of course - e.g. the drive in Australia (can't remember the year) when he drove much like Lewis did in Hungary last Sunday. The rumour was Andrea De Cesaris nicked his crash helmet and drove the car instead that day!! or the Monaco Grand Prix in 1988 or the Italian Grand Prix of 87 and 88. But overall, the career is one of success, followed by success, followed by more success. A career in which he took cars (Toleman, Lotus, one or two McLaren's) into places they had no right to be. He destroyed careers of his team mates such was the gap with which he beat them. There were no "off-seasons" no "ohhh that car is not to my liking" - he simply got on with the job - and that job was never less than remarkable.

So Lewis - as we have discussed over the posts - has, for whatever reason, had a poor season - and 2011 was a shocker. That is held against him - and perhaps rightly so. But then once again we have this unfair comparison between Lewis and Vettel. Lewis does not get away with 2011 but Vettel can walk away from 2014 unscathed?

In 2014, after his team had given him 5 years of an astounding car*, Vettel suddenly had a car that was not the best. It wasn't quite to his liking. It's not like he was suddenly fed a dog of a car - his team mate won three times with it - he just "didn't fancy it".... So, while getting paid on his multi-million dollar contract what does he do? Well for whatever reason he spends the season in a strop and driving like a number 2. Even Christian Horner got fed up with his man and publically said "he's just got to get on with it".

All I am asking for here is a bit of fairness, a bit of consistency in the treatment being meted out. What is good for Lewis when judging him - should be good for Vettel when judging his ability.

Sorry but Senna, Schumacher (and yes I am not including that ill-fated "comeback") or Prost NEVER had an off season. They were class drivers - the best of the best, they were metronomic. They didn't decide one season they couldn't be arsed because they didn't like the car.

* Can you imagine what the record books would look like if Ayrton Senna had been given Vettel's cars and of course the modern day reliability to go with them?? Put it this way, Schumacher would not have the most World Championships or Grand Prix wins that's for sure....
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

2012 constructors points:
Red Bull: 460 (won 8 races)
Ferrari: 400 (won 3 races)
McLaren: 378 (won 7 races)
Lotus: 303

If you look at the season as a whole, there were 3 races McLaren won where the team mate retired from the race...
warspite1

But a car's reliability is all part of it!

Nigel Mansell would not only have won the 1987 World Championship at a canter but he would have won in 1986 too if reliability was not an issue. Alain Prost would be 1982 World Champion on the same basis - and there are loads more examples.

So what did Autocourse - the F1 motor racing bible - have to say about Lewis in 2012? Did they support the notion he had a fully competitive car that he failed to land the World Championship in because of all the mistakes he made?

'...he was scuppered by factors beyond his control. This was a campaign that contrasted sharply with the error-ridden mess of 2011, for it's execution was largely flawless on his part, but the team let him down on a couple of occasions and his car did so with greater frequency still. Singapore and Abu Dhabi were races he should have won easily but for gearbox failure and sudden loss of fuel pressure. There's a belief that modern Grand Prix cars are unbreakable but one of them certainly wasn't'.
McLaren most definitely had a competitive car in 2012.

And I wouldn't disagree - it just wasn't in the same class as the Red Bull!!

Nigel had the competitive car in 1987 - and if the damn thing had been reliable and had come home in Monaco, Portugal, Hungary and Italy he would have been World Champion. But it didn't so he wasn't - nothing to do with driver mistakes - just the car letting the driver down.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

When did Formula One begin? 1950 or 1984?
Conflict with the unexpected: two qualities are indispensable; first, an intellect which, even in the midst of this obscurity, is not without some traces of inner light which lead to the truth; second, the courage to follow this faint light. KvC
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Gilmer »

You keep going back to comparing Vettel and Hamilton. That was not my intent. I was not putting Hamilton down to build up Vettel. I was only pointing out why Vettel might have done poorly in relation to Ricciardo, without any comparison of Hamilton at all. I don't know much about Hamilton other than he is a very good driver, has won two championships and is driving very well this year. And we all now see Ricciardo has dropped off a lot since last year whereas Vettel changed cars and is driving excellently again.

I think you might have included me in the "Hamilton doesn't race well when things don't go his way." argument. What I actually said was I sort of agree with the announcers when they said BOTH the Mercedes drivers tended to lose their cool when things didn't go their way. Now, there is some argument that they keep their cool, too. there are examples either way, but please don't read into it that I was just criticizing Hamilton when I said I agreed with the announcers. We had just seen Rosberg make a really dumb mistake when he could have gained some points on Hamilton. That was very high in my mind when I typed that I agreed with the announcers. Hamilton drove off the tracks twice I believe, so they both lost their cool in the last race.
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

When did Formula One begin? 1950 or 1984?
warspite1

Wasn't sure why you asked that question - although on reflection assume it is to do with the Senna comment.

Point is, I have no interest in rating drivers I have never seen. There is absolutely no point - after all it would just be an exercise in reading stats. An F1 fan in 20 years time will see - Senna, Lauda, Stewart and Piquet. All three time world champions. So they are all roughly the same right? Er no, not even close, but the fan will have no idea what cars they drove, how good they were in relation to other cars, how good their teammates were, no knowledge of individual races and what it took to win them or even brilliant drives for points, their luck good and bad etc etc. Stats can give you only so much.

Was Fangio or perhaps Clark the greatest ever? No idea. Fangio won 5 times even though he was an 'old man' by the time he came to Europe - so he can't have been rubbish can he? Clark had the Lotus to drive but equally was revered by his peers so having the right car was clearly only part of the story. But me, only just born when Clark won his second title and long after Fangio retired, rating one against the other? What is the point in that?
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

You keep going back to comparing Vettel and Hamilton. That was not my intent. I was not putting Hamilton down to build up Vettel. I was only pointing out why Vettel might have done poorly in relation to Ricciardo, without any comparison of Hamilton at all. I don't know much about Hamilton other than he is a very good driver, has won two championships and is driving very well this year. And we all now see Ricciardo has dropped off a lot since last year whereas Vettel changed cars and is driving excellently again.

I think you might have included me in the "Hamilton doesn't race well when things don't go his way." argument. What I actually said was I sort of agree with the announcers when they said BOTH the Mercedes drivers tended to lose their cool when things didn't go their way. Now, there is some argument that they keep their cool, too. there are examples either way, but please don't read into it that I was just criticizing Hamilton when I said I agreed with the announcers. We had just seen Rosberg make a really dumb mistake when he could have gained some points on Hamilton. That was very high in my mind when I typed that I agreed with the announcers. Hamilton drove off the tracks twice I believe, so they both lost their cool in the last race.
warspite1

Sorry if I have 'accused' you of taking a position you haven't HG.

Anyway, I'm getting too 'involved' with this so will withdraw from the debate and concentrate on the second half of the season.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by british exil »

Anyway, I'm getting too 'involved' with this so will withdraw from the debate and concentrate on the second half of the season.

Warspite do you think Vettel will be able to catch up in the championship?
Ferrari have improved since the beginning of the season. Making big improvements.Or will Mercedes have some aces in their sleeves, using the summer break to make the car even better, so that Hamilton will win the races he needs to clinch the title or maybe so that Rosberg can move past Hamilton?

Mat



Just getting ready the the 2nd half of the season. ;)
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: british exil
Anyway, I'm getting too 'involved' with this so will withdraw from the debate and concentrate on the second half of the season.

Warspite do you think Vettel will be able to catch up in the championship?
Ferrari have improved since the beginning of the season. Making big improvements.Or will Mercedes have some aces in their sleeves, using the summer break to make the car even better, so that Hamilton will win the races he needs to clinch the title or maybe so that Rosberg can move past Hamilton?

Mat



Just getting ready the the 2nd half of the season. ;)
warspite1

Well Hungary was a worrying development. But there are a lot of fast tracks to come and so an awful lot depends upon whether Ferrari have improved in that department. If they do make the leap, then I think Vettel has a great chance because Ferrari will use Raikonnen to best advantage.

But I am hoping that Silverstone is a guide to where they each stand on fast tracks as this suggests not....

One thing is for certain. If Ferrari are competitive at Spa we have a real battle to look forward to.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by british exil »

Mercedes are already working on improvements. as always. There is always a better racing car waiting to be designed and built.

https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-we ... tions.html

Mat
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: british exil

Mercedes are already working on improvements. as always. There is always a better racing car waiting to be designed and built.

https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-we ... tions.html

Mat
warspite1

Sure, and that is good to hear. But as ever the great unknowns are:

a) will the improvements and upgrades work
b) will the new 'stuff' introduce unreliability into the mix.

Same applies for Ferrari of course - but.......

#nervousashell
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

Ahhhh...Spa, my favorite track! Well, Nurburgring (Nordschleif)...would be really cool for F1 if they drove that entire track again.

Since I didn't get into F1 until 1998, then I reject Senna as a top driver...if that makes any sense...which I dont think it does. As I watched Schumi, I really did think I was watching something special and the best F1 driver ever. I understand your position Warspite, and in some way Schumi alludes to it at the end of the following remark, but at the same time he holds Fangio above himself (that could be Hyperbole, but I assume he means it). Here is what Schumi said about Fangio (he wasn't alive to have witnessed it): "Fangio is on a level much higher than I see myself. What he did stands alone and what we have achieved is also unique. I have such respect for what he achieved. You cant take a personality like Fangio and compare him with what has happened today. There is not even the slightest comparison."
So, while you put Senna on the top of your list, perhaps it would be more accurate to place an asterisk somewhere with Fangio's name next to it?

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

I think lists can be fun and can be an interesting exercise. But equally there is a point at which there is limited value of any such.

My top 10 list - based purely on drivers I have seen race 'in the flesh' and whose careers I have followed accordingly (essentially the cut off point is drivers in Formula 1 from 1980) is incredibly difficult. No Fittipaldi, no Villeneuve.

Fact is, only the top three are set in stone. Prost should be closer to Schumacher (or even ahead) but for his wet weather timidity (no doubt a consequence of Germany 1982).

After those three? It becomes really tough - Lauda and Mansell for sheer astonishing bravery alone - deserve their places in the ten, but both were also more than worthy champions racing against top opposition.

Then we have the three current drivers. Don't know where they will end up - only that based on what they have done so far means they will be in the 10.

Frankly 9 and 10 were posted because I needed to round out the 10 but by these two I had totally lost interest.

At least with these drivers I have seen them race - I have seen good races and bad races - I knew what they were up against and what they were driving. It's difficult getting some images out of the mind - Nigel scything past a Tyrrell at Abbey (Silverstone 1987) or Senna on a qualifying lap (Estoril 1986) - these are the bits you miss when just relying on stats in books.

Now what seems likely is that Fangio, Clark and possibly Stewart or Moss need to be in the ten. But for me it would be meaningless. I have not the slightest yardstick to go by in placing them anywhere; wins are only of limited value - otherwise what about Brabham (3) Ascari (2) G.Hill (2)?

1. Ayrton Senna – 3 titles
2. Michael Schumacher – 7 titles
3. Alain Prost – 4 titles
-------------------------------------
4. Niki Lauda – 3 titles
5. Nigel Mansell – 1 title
-------------------------------------
6. Fernando Alonso – 2 titles / Sebastian Vettel – 4 titles / Lewis Hamilton – 2 titles
--------------------------------------
9. Nelson Piquet – 3 titles
10. Mika Hakkinen – 2 titles


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by AndyG1 »

Regarding the question on Vettel having a chance in 2015 following Hungary win.

My experience tells me no. The press are hyping up the F1 season after Hungary. But the fact is, the Mercedes advantage (engine) is too much, Hungary has short straights and plenty of corners. That's why Red Bull did well too - that Renault engine is rubbish, but he Newey chassis:).

Well go to Spa, Mercedes will make it a 'cake walk'. That's my view on things.

By the way, Schumy, Senna, Mansell, Prost, Piquet, Hakkinen all drove in the same season (1991). All World Champions at some stage. And there are no doubt many more seasons with similar potential talent as well as existing. But the car is God in F1.

By the way, what's that saying again? Ah yes, "lies, damned lies, and statistics".

Never just go by the stats:).
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