Chaos(SHC) vs Pelton-T131- Game Over-Soviet victory.

[Fishbed]

Why always fall back like you do? If you end up blunting an offensive, why give him immediately the equivalent of land he didn't get in his 3 weeks of fighting? Especially if he's out of steam... Don't think you could grab a couple more weeks overall? You're not even putting up a fight in the spaces - having a few sacrificial lambs in a checker defense on his way to your line would always be better than just plain void... wouldn't it?

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Why always fall back like you do? If you end up blunting an offensive, why give him immediately the equivalent of land he didn't get in his 3 weeks of fighting? Especially if he's out of steam... Don't think you could grab a couple more weeks overall? You're not even putting up a fight in the spaces - having a few sacrificial lambs in a checker defense on his way to your line would always be better than just plain void... wouldn't it?

my instinct is in 1942 its all about saving your army, you have few, apart from Moscow, locations you have to defend so evading pockets and not losing anything you can save is the best overall strategy. Do that, and with a decent industrial base, you'll take back anything you lost at a time and place of your choosing ... (well that might be overstating but essentially don't fight for this terrain when the axis is strong)

[Fishbed]

Well I reckon there is much value in extending artificially the line with a bulge - he can still man the lines, Pelton can't be strong everywhere (which leads to the small guerilla in front of Moscow). So I am not arguing about the outcome - just the way it is handed over in a matter of just one turn! That's like an average of 50 klicks given for totally free, like a treat after a tough battle. But you're right, Chaos maybe doesn't have that many units left, to begin with...

[chaos45]

Fishbed- the issue is if I cant Zoc his supply lines his panzers become lawn mowers. Without Zocs over several hexes of his supplies they quickly jump to 30+ movement, which means he can move from 1 encirclement to the next if I stay close. By falling back I make it much more difficult for him to gain a secondary encirclement plus it forces him to extend his forces thus become susceptible to counterattacks from the extension. While the Germans stay concentrated in one area with 30+ panzer/motorized divisions counterattacks are very difficult especially if they are getting decently supplied.

Notice how on T56 he has a clear supply path in the middle of his pincers- this means he will get a good flow of supply on his next turn- thus no use fighting about 30+ Formations with 30+ movement next turn....I would just be throwing away more troops. Also where his tanks arent my lines are closed back up on him across the front as I have no risk of breakthroughs from a handful of infantry divisions. This is the only sector Im giving him space as it makes him burn fuel/trucks/movement to close back up and gain anything important. I cant understate how detrimental it is to Soviet units to stay close to 30+ german motorized divisions when they have almost full move you cant stop them as thats alot of deliberate attacks with high CV he can make. Force him to use mainly hasty attacks if he wants to break lines- makes them fail more and in general they are less successful. Only in highly fortified/high troop density areas do you want to stay close.

Plus that space gives me a turn to refit all my cav corps and tank corps for a turn- as the 3 turns of combat had many at 70-80% strength mainly due to every counter attack costing 100+ AFV. All those T60/T70s that make up a good chunk the soviet tank force die easily.

He switches to assaulting the Tula area on T58 but that battle is ongoing so wont post any shots further until that resolves. As he needs to clear his flank before he advances deeper, I dont sit by in quiet sectors I press till he reinforces enough to stop me. - So far its proving to be a very bloody fight for both sides- but more so for the Germans as almost all the losses are on Panzer/Motorized divisions---even getting some routs [8D]

At current the key units in the Soviet army are still proving to be my Cav Corps- I usually get 2-3+ successful counterattacks per turn with them...then another 2-3 from my tank corps now that they are becoming competent. Up to 16 or 17 Guard Cav corps and 5 Guard tank corps now. T60 gets interesting as I encircle 4 German infantry divisions, he can prolly break out but it should pull several Panzer/motorized divisions from the Tula assault to save them [8D]

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Why always fall back like you do? If you end up blunting an offensive, why give him immediately the equivalent of land he didn't get in his 3 weeks of fighting? Especially if he's out of steam... Don't think you could grab a couple more weeks overall? You're not even putting up a fight in the spaces - having a few sacrificial lambs in a checker defense on his way to your line would always be better than just plain void... wouldn't it?

Peltonx vs smokendave

tm.asp?m=3738744

Fact is you can lose far more then historical in every way and you still win

Only have to hold Moscow.

The game is very much alpha from 44 to 45.

Also

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The Russian player can make 20+ mistakes and still win, you simply have to have the grit to play on.

The Red Army 44 to 45 is simply Middle Earth

The game is a snow ball.

[chaos45]

Pelton- Will say the one game is very old and the game is really completely different now.

Soviet manpower replacements are way lower than in that old 1.04 game- per example 600k+ men in the manpower pool for the soviets even after losing 5M+ men in 1942 not going to happen in the current 1.08+ version. Not to mention current German blizzard losses are way lower- his losses actually show closer to historical German losses for the blizzard- 50-100k men per turn.

Those two things alone completely change the game- as the Soviets cant take as many losses and stay in the game and the Germans are taking roughly half a million less losses over the blizzard in the current version of the game. So thats a massive balance shift, massive in favor of the Axis over the old V1.04.

So I wouldnt say thats really a valid example of the current game.

You game vs Smokindave is hard to judge as you just back off and arent really fighting for ground. You have only shown screens of one decent size battle to delay your retreat. I will admit I havent play the game much into the later game but think, from what im seeing on the boards hardly anyone has played the current version into late game at all. Even you and SD game started under an older version correct?

Also even in your current game vs SD- your still about historical if not slightly better than historical along the entire front. If you stood and fought and sacrificed troops for space you might even be better than historical in your retreat.

I do agree from seeing the victory screens posted that they need to change the VP levels for end game. Probably to something like April-July Berlin falls is a draw August/SEP= German minor later= German major. FEB/MAR- minor soviet dec 44/jan 45 Soviet Major....something like that would probably be a more fair VP system.

[chaos45]

Once we get a few more turns up will start posting the Battle of Tula I will lose 3 tank corps from my counterattack north of Rostov and maybe more over the next couple turns but it had the effect of ending any chance the Germans have of taking Tula in the near future as it drew off an entire panzer army from the assault and allowed my tanks and Shock armies in that sector to drive back the Germans in several locations. We are into August now so time is slowly ticking more and more against the Germans.

I still hold Rostov, and have even retaken a couple hexes lost to his continued assaults in the north. I think attrition is starting to play out, as Im noticing a general weakening of his panzer forces CV over the last couple turns finally....and even seeing some 5 CV german infantry in places which are easy to assault.

The tank corps will hurt AP wise but troop wise they are pathetic 20k men and 300-400 AFVs total- I lose that many AFVs in 2-3 standard attacks lol. However apparently stalin decided to name one of them guards in the pocket so thats kinda annoying but oh well.

I have a feeling the manpower crunch for Soviets is going to continue for a long time....which is odd considering I held roughly historical manpower locations- lost leningrad but held Rostov/Novogorod and a couple other smaller manpower centers over historical. Im guessing its a balancing factor. Ohh well just build more artillery now to soak up my armaments [8D]

The combat engine has some very strange results as well such as one battle last turn where I hit 2 German motorized divisions not fortified with 12 Soviet Tank corps and failed the deliberate first attack....doubt in any type of real life situation that would ever, and I mean ever happen.....thats 2k+ soviet tanks against 2 divisions with barely any armor in the open. In a real life battle in that situation those 2 motorized divisions would have been effectively destroy- yes the soviets would have taken alot of losses but the net effect of a real life assault on that scale against just 2 divisions in the open would have been their almost complete annihilation...really no matter how crappy the soviet general might be...and my general is decent 6 Mech which for soviets isnt bad.

[HITMAN202]

chaos, I disagree; in fact strongly. Communication twixt Soviet units at all levels were often inadequate throughout the war and even more so in 1942. I could easily envision a scenario in which fewer than 10% of a strong Soviet force would engage, then get routed by a smaller, well coordinated German defense and in the ensuing confusion be rendered toothless. Lack of initiative, influence (fear) of political commissars, and gross inexperience would rule the day.

+2,000 AFV attack into a 10 km hex, 1942 ??? Pelton's Middle Earth scenario at it's best. Only the greatest German leader (avatar) could carry the day. Yep, it's the Hitman (ie. Dr Death, a minion of Sauron, ie Pelton himself !!)

[chaos45]

that could be the case if I was throwing 20 exp formations into the attack instead of the 50 exp formations it was conducted with.........

Historically in early 1942 the soviets threw newly formred tank corps into the offensive and thus they were destroyed. These tank corps have all been around since april and won several previous battles lol.

[chaos45]

T57- only real action is in the midsouth- He halts his drive east and re-positions for an attack on Tula.

[chaos45]

T58- His initial assault into my positions at Tula is far less than I believe he expected. Basically for a German offensive it is blunted within the first week.

[BrianG]

Do you have a picture of this bad clear hex defeat.

I can see.. maybe the fort was .90, which you may not know as Russian. Then, maybe, top German tank general with very high morale in good supply. How many tanks did you lose in the battle? And did you attack the hex before or after. Those results also may explain why your big tank attack failed.

[chaos45]

I still pushed the hex with a second attack. Guessing my general just rolled crappy for the first roll as I barely lost was like 1.8:1 or some such....but still for that many tanks my guys must have been shooting each other lol.

Im sure it was one of the better German generals as it was against some motorized divisions so a panzer corps leader for sure.

Im also no big on gamey/unrealistic tactics of using crap units to soak up bullets before the main attack.

An yes he had a % of fortification but my 24 regiments of Sappers should have reduced that I would think, been a couple weeks now so dont remember all te specifics.

My tank corps are all +2 Sapper regiments and +1 tank Bn for attachments.

[chaos45]

T59 North- Furthest extent of his advance here, as you can see I cut him off at this point and he starts to retreat after this.

[chaos45]

T59 Center- siege lines are drawn lol.

[chaos45]

T59- Tula sector- his assault continues but is meeting very heavy counterattacks and is slowly being turned back. Look at the routed Motorized corps that ran off [8D]

[chaos45]

T59 Upper south- is that a Soviet breakthrough and encirclement??? what??

It turns out bad for several of my tank corps but it completely collapses the German Tula offensive as a Panzer army must be sent to rescue that infantry corps [8D]

[chaos45]

T59 Rostov pretty well siege lines...hes been slowly trying to push me completely over the river but the swamps/rostov have held.

[chaos45]

T59- Crimea- pretty quiet here most the time for some reason like every 2-3 turns Pelton thinks he can attack for some reason and gets a couple thousand of his guys down there killed.

Im content to hold the my bridgehead for now [8D]

[chaos45]

T60- North- He begins to retreat in the far north and I managed to push a hex on his southern assault sector- think this unnerves him as he retreats from this area very soon.