New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

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warspite1
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

I understand the danger and I understand the anger, too. I think part of the anger, and forgive me if I'm wrong on this, was the shortsightedness of having that crane out there while they were still racing at speed.

Am I wrong in saying this was a wreck AFTER another wreck and the crane was out there removing the initial wrecked car?
warspite1

Yes Jules Bianchi hit the tractor that was helping to remove Adrian Sutil's Sauber.

This is where anger is excusable. There have been plenty of near-misses of this kind in the past - Martin Brundle for one earlier in his career. If races are stopped when cars are by the side of the track in a dangerous position, why would anyone think a tractor by the side of the track is not a problem? Yes I know there were Yellow Flags out but visibility was low, and rain was hard. Accidents happen even under Yellow conditions.
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Gilmer »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: H Gilmer

I understand the danger and I understand the anger, too. I think part of the anger, and forgive me if I'm wrong on this, was the shortsightedness of having that crane out there while they were still racing at speed.

Am I wrong in saying this was a wreck AFTER another wreck and the crane was out there removing the initial wrecked car?
warspite1

Yes Jules Bianchi hit the tractor that was helping to remove Adrian Sutil's Sauber.

This is where anger is excusable. There have been plenty of near-misses of this kind in the past - Martin Brundle for one earlier in his career. If races are stopped when cars are by the side of the track in a dangerous position, why would anyone think a tractor by the side of the track is not a problem? Yes I know there were Yellow Flags out but visibility was low, and rain was hard. Accidents happen even under Yellow conditions.

Agree 100 per cent.
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

So the Grand Prix circus moves to Hungary....

This has not always been a happy hunting ground for the British [:(]

I was there in 1987 when Our Nige destroyed Piquet and was coasting to yet another victory when a bloody wheel nut fell off [:@]
Image

It all goes wrong (again) for Red 5. To the bafflement of most, Nelson Piquet's name is forever inscribed as the 1987 Formula 1 World Champion. Right......



Ten years later and Damon Hill was two laps from being the only man ever to win a Grand Prix for Arrows when his throttle broke - and ultimately had to finish second [&:]
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Damon overtaking Schumacher in the opening laps.
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Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by AndyG1 »

Happy hunting for Mansell in 1989, starting 16th, adding a Gurney flap on the grid in a desperate attempt at gaining some downforce, working his way through the field and passing Senna for the lead and driving off into the distance to take the win - all in a fragile Ferrari. Ah, the good old days of F1!

That Damon Hill moment in 1997 was gutting! At Silverstone that year he finished 6th (last points position back then) for his first points of the season as current World Champ. We cheered him like he'd won the race! Morning warm up on race day was wet and he was quickest! For once in UK the sun came out and spoiled our hopes, lol!
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

The first season I discovered F1 (1998), I remember Schumacher winning Hungary with a 3 stop strategy and keeping himself in the running for the championship...later won by Hakkinen (McLaren-Mercedes)...Hakkinen was my favorite driver that year and until his retirement.
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: AndyG1

Happy hunting for Mansell in 1989, starting 16th, adding a Gurney flap on the grid in a desperate attempt at gaining some downforce, working his way through the field and passing Senna for the lead and driving off into the distance to take the win - all in a fragile Ferrari. Ah, the good old days of F1!

warspite1

Yes, Nigel had some consolation (not the same as losing a World Championship though) two years later. Best Grand Prix ever? I think so and I'm not even biased [;)]

Nigel was always a brave, committed and skilful overtaker - and he needed to be that day. How many cars did he overtake [&o] before wiping the great Ayrton Senna out against Johansson's Onyx to take the lead

Beautiful moment, incredible race. Nigel we love you
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Stonking manoeuvre from "Our Nige"!!!
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Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by AndyG1 »

Of course, for our Nige Hungary had a few more ups and downs. Winning the World Championship at the 1992 race. Wasn't there one year at this event where he was sitting on an open topped vehicle celebrating a win, when he hit his head on a metal beam....and Murray Walker famously interviewed him and asked him where it hurt, whilst prodding the exact area with Mansell wincing in pain?
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: AndyG1

Of course, for our Nige Hungary had a few more ups and downs. Winning the World Championship at the 1992 race. Wasn't there one year at this event where he was sitting on an open topped vehicle celebrating a win, when he hit his head on a metal beam....and Murray Walker famously interviewed him and asked him where it hurt, whilst prodding the exact area with Mansell wincing in pain?
warspite1

Yes Nige won the World Championship in Hungary - although of course for all intents and purposes it was over long before then [:)]

Murray poking Nige's head was not in Hungary - it as from Austria the week after the massive disappointment of the loose wheel nut that robbed him of certain victory.

We were out there for both races and saw Nige slaughter Piquet once more. Just as he was to do with Senna/Johannson in 1989, so Nige used Satoru Nakajima's Lotus to wipe Piquet out in Austria to take the lead.

Nigel sweeps to victory at the wonderful (and frankly scary) Oesterrichring [&o][&o]. Although cruel, cruel luck would rob him of the World Championship that year, there was only one Champion driver in 1987


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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

Awesome start!!!
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by british exil »

What a terrible race.

Lots of bad luck to Hamilton, Rosberg and Raikkonen. Where Hamilton is still the winner.

A very lucky Hulkenberg and even more so Botas, who was nearly shot out of the race.

Someone needs to explain the rules to Maldolnado, how many drive through's did he get? He must have set a F1 record this weekend. If I am not mistaken he got a penalty for a different reason every time.

Next race more luck for Mercedes.

Even if I want Hamilton to win every race, I would have liked Rosberg to have been in the big points, I feel he does deserve it.

Mat
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

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ORIGINAL: british exil

What a terrible race.
warspite1

+1

The worrying thing for Mercedes is that, despite the seeming dominance of their car, Vettel is only 42 points behind Hamilton - less than two race wins [X(]

If anyone thinks this championship is over - they should think again....
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by british exil »

How did Vettel manage to sneak that far up? I felt that it was between Hamilton and Rosberg.

It looks like it is turning out to be a nail biting season. We are only just half way through it.

Mat
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: british exil

How did Vettel manage to sneak that far up? I felt that it was between Hamilton and Rosberg.

It looks like it is turning out to be a nail biting season. We are only just half way through it.

Mat
warspite1

I haven't checked the stats but he must have finished 3rd a lot plus of course the TWO wins....

Trouble is, if Ferrari have made a leap forward then they will have the benefit of having one clear No.1 while the Merc boys are taking points off each other.....
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by british exil »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: british exil

How did Vettel manage to sneak that far up? I felt that it was between Hamilton and Rosberg.

It looks like it is turning out to be a nail biting season. We are only just half way through it.

Mat
warspite1

I haven't checked the stats but he must have finished 3rd a lot plus of course the TWO wins....

Trouble is, if Ferrari have made a leap forward then they will have the benefit of having one clear No.1 while the Merc boys are taking points off each other.....

Sooner or later Mercedes will have to decide who is going to get the No. 1 driver seat. Or will they be satisfied with the constructors title?
I can't imagine them taking the risk of losing the driver title. Or Hamilton having to take the No.2 seat. Then again Rosberg wants the title as well.
I just hope Toto, Lauda and Lowe can get the team working forwards, together.

If Vettel smells blood and the Ferrari boys get their show together, then it will be a hard rest of the season for the Silver Arrows. Their No.2 driver is content being the wingman.

Mat
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

I disagree that there should be a #1 and #2 driver. That's what I don't like about F1...that and the terrible new engine sounds. My #1 concern is the Constructor's Championship...I'm not a fan of a particular driver as much as I'm a Mercedes fan. I like it the way Mercedes has it now...let them fight it out...and its better for the sport as a whole. Frankly I'd rather have Vettle win it than Hamilton anyway if it cant be Rosberg.
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Gilmer »

ORIGINAL: british exil

How did Vettel manage to sneak that far up? I felt that it was between Hamilton and Rosberg.

It looks like it is turning out to be a nail biting season. We are only just half way through it.

Mat

Vettel has had 7 podiums, 2 of them wins. The other 3 races were a 4th and 2 5ths. At least one of the non-win podiums was a 2nd - Monaco.

He has done this quietly because everyone has been wrapped up in watching Hamilton and Rosberg, and their "feud".

I don't know what it is with the Mercedes but I have seen several races now where they got off to a very poor start. Both Hamilton and Rosberg. In one race, the one where Hamilton had throttle issues on the start, Rosberg was able to get off to a good start and he won that race. This race they both had very poor starts and it eventually cost them both. I agree with the announcers that say that they seem to lose their cool when things don't go their way. This race was a perfect example of it. Hamilton got off the track twice? And Rosberg cut in front of Ricciardo and cut his back tire down, when he should have just allowed Ricciardo the room and let him take the spot, if needed.
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

I disagree that there should be a #1 and #2 driver. That's what I don't like about F1...that and the terrible new engine sounds. My #1 concern is the Constructor's Championship...I'm not a fan of a particular driver as much as I'm a Mercedes fan. I like it the way Mercedes has it now...let them fight it out...and its better for the sport as a whole. Frankly I'd rather have Vettle win it than Hamilton anyway if it cant be Rosberg.
warspite1

Well who you support is of course entirely up to you but I do not follow the logic here.

You do not follow a driver so much as a team - and your team is Mercedes. But if Rosberg (Mercedes) does not win the WC you would prefer Vettel (Ferrari) rather than Hamilton (Mercedes).

One of the things you dislike about F1 is the existence of No.1 and No.2 drivers. I suppose that is for the same reasons as most a) if there is only one team in the race (e.g. Mercedes 2014, Red Bull 2012 and 2013), then there would be no competition at all, and b) it gives an unfair advantage to that No.1 e.g. Schumacher, Vettel etc. But if that is one of the things you dislike about F1 then why would you want to see Vettel gain by such artificial assistance - especially at the expense of your team Mercedes who are at least trying to do the right thing by letting their boys race?
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by Jagdtiger14 »

Like I wrote, my #1 concern is the Constructor's Championship. Now, it would be nice that a Mercedes driver wins the Drivers Championship as well, and I hope its Rosberg. I'm really not a fan of Hamilton. The only driver I like less in F1 is Alonso. I would say Vettel is probably my favorite driver, and I wish he drove for Mercedes. Because I'm a Mercedes fan first, I'll root for Rosberg over Vettel...but my dislike for Hamilton will not allow me to do the same for him. I'll root for Hamilton to get points for Mercedes to win the Constructors, but now that its pretty much sown up for Mercedes I feel released from wanting Hamilton to get many more points.

I'm not convinced that Vettel is getting the artificial assistance that you think he is...the Ice Man is under a lot of pressure to perform better, and has not really been a threat to Vettel...I'm sure they would like Kimi to score way more points than he has, and being a threat to Vettel would be a good problem for them to have.
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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Like I wrote, my #1 concern is the Constructor's Championship. Now, it would be nice that a Mercedes driver wins the Drivers Championship as well, and I hope its Rosberg. I'm really not a fan of Hamilton. The only driver I like less in F1 is Alonso. I would say Vettel is probably my favorite driver, and I wish he drove for Mercedes. Because I'm a Mercedes fan first, I'll root for Rosberg over Vettel...but my dislike for Hamilton will not allow me to do the same for him. I'll root for Hamilton to get points for Mercedes to win the Constructors, but now that its pretty much sown up for Mercedes I feel released from wanting Hamilton to get many more points.

I'm not convinced that Vettel is getting the artificial assistance that you think he is...the Ice Man is under a lot of pressure to perform better, and has not really been a threat to Vettel...I'm sure they would like Kimi to score way more points than he has, and being a threat to Vettel would be a good problem for them to have.
warspite1

Well that was my point, I did not understand the logic. Now I do. Personal dislike of Lewis outweighs the wish that Mercedes (other than Rosberg) does well or that team orders are in force in one of the big teams. That's fine - I have no care either way - I just wanted to understand the logic given the two statements made.

As for "I'm not convinced that Vettel is getting the artificial assistance that you think he is.." I did not say to what level I thought he was getting assistance. I believe that Vettel/Raikonnen is a bit like Hakkinen/Coulthard. The amount of support that Raikonnen can give is very much dependent upon how close he is to Vettel and the speed compared to the Mercedes. So far that is not very and not close enough respectively.

However, as I said in my earlier post, it only becomes an issue if Ferrari make/have made a big leap forward. In such a scenario, Raikonnen can AND WILL be told to play rear gunner for Vettel. He WILL be used for pit stops etc with one eye on what Mercedes are doing and how he can compromise their race. At that point, having a clear no.2 is priceless.

Ask Prost if he would have won the 1986 World Title if Piquet or Nigel had been given outright no.1 status? Ask Piquet if he would have won the 1981 WC if Alan Jones or Carlos Reutemannn had been given outright No.1 status.
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: New Grand Prix Season Is Almost Upon Us!!!

Post by british exil »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Like I wrote, my #1 concern is the Constructor's Championship. Now, it would be nice that a Mercedes driver wins the Drivers Championship as well, and I hope its Rosberg. I'm really not a fan of Hamilton. The only driver I like less in F1 is Alonso. I would say Vettel is probably my favorite driver, and I wish he drove for Mercedes. Because I'm a Mercedes fan first, I'll root for Rosberg over Vettel...but my dislike for Hamilton will not allow me to do the same for him. I'll root for Hamilton to get points for Mercedes to win the Constructors, but now that its pretty much sown up for Mercedes I feel released from wanting Hamilton to get many more points.

I'm not convinced that Vettel is getting the artificial assistance that you think he is...the Ice Man is under a lot of pressure to perform better, and has not really been a threat to Vettel...I'm sure they would like Kimi to score way more points than he has, and being a threat to Vettel would be a good problem for them to have.
warspite1

Well that was my point, I did not understand the logic. Now I do. Personal dislike of Lewis outweighs the wish that Mercedes (other than Rosberg) does well or that team orders are in force in one of the big teams. That's fine - I have no care either way - I just wanted to understand the logic.

As for "I'm not convinced that Vettel is getting the artificial assistance that you think he is.." I did not say to what level I thought he was getting assistance. I believe that Vettel/Raikonnen is a bit like Hakkinen/Coulthard. The amount of support that Raikonnen can give is very much dependent upon how close he is to Vettel and the speed compared to the Mercedes. So far that is not very and not close enough respectively.

However, as I said in my earlier post, it only becomes an issue if Ferrari make/have made a big leap forward. In such a scenario, Raikonnen can AND WILL be told to play rear gunner for Vettel. He WILL be used for pit stops etc with one eye on what Mercedes are doing and how he can compromise their race. At that point, having a clear no.2 is priceless.

Ask Prost if he would have won the 1986 World Title if Piquet or Nigel had been given outright no.1 status? Ask Piquet if he would have won the 1981 WC if Alan Jones or Carlos Reutemannn had been given outright No.1 status.

Was just thinking of the race where Ferrari ordered their no.2 diver to let himself be overtaken. It was a big scandal back then. I was just looking on the net for the race when I stumbled over this article.


Team orders in F1

Such orders were legal and accepted historically in motor racing. In the early years of the Formula One World Championship it was even legal for a driver to give up his car during the race to the team leader if his car had broken down. In 1955 the Mercedes team asked Juan Manuel Fangio to let his teammate Stirling Moss win his home grand prix at Silverstone. Fangio obliged, refusing to attack Moss in the closing stages of the race and coming home second less than a second behind.[2] The 1964 season saw a dramatic finale in which Lorenzo Bandini moved over to John Surtees during the Mexican Grand Prix, allowing Surtees to get the necessary points to beat Graham Hill to the World Championship.[3]

In the 1979 German Grand Prix Clay Regazzoni was instructed by the Williams pits not to attack his teammate Alan Jones for the lead, despite Regazzoni being ahead in the championship.[4] The status of Jones as number one driver at Williams lasted until 1981, when Carlos Reutemann deliberately ignored team orders at the 1981 Brazilian Grand Prix and did not allow him to pass. This resulted in a long feud between the two that eventually led to Jones' retirement at the end of the season, with Reutemann missing on the World Championship for one single point.[5]

In 1982 René Arnoux enraged Renault by refusing to give way to his teammate Alain Prost at the 1982 French Grand Prix, who at the time was ahead in the championship.[6]

During the 1983 South African Grand Prix, the Brabham-BMW team asked driver Riccardo Patrese to cede Nelson Piquet the race win if it ensured Piquet would win the driver's championship. However, this didn't prove to be necessary as Patrese won the race while Piquet clinched a third place, sufficient to secure him the championship.[7]

Patrese found himself in a similar situation again in 1992, when he blatantly waved his Williams teammate Nigel Mansell around him during the 1992 French Grand Prix.[8]

In 1991, at the 1991 Japanese Grand Prix, Ayrton Senna was already world champion and conceded the victory to Gerhard Berger, saying after the race that he had given the 1st place to Berger because "he had been very helpful".

In the late 1990s incidents of team orders began to be reported more prominently by the media. Public reaction to the more blatant examples of their use became extremely negative. In the 1997 European Grand Prix, Jacques Villeneuve, already with the title in the bag, was asked by his engineer via radio to let the McLaren cars pass as "They've been very helpful",[9] while at the 1998 Australian Grand Prix, the McLaren drivers David Coulthard and Mika Häkkinen caused a stir by switching position at the end of the race in order to respect a previous agreement.[10] In contrast, the 1997 Japanese Grand Prix saw a more sophisticated use of team orders, where Ferrari driver Eddie Irvine began the race light on fuel, allowing him to get ahead of the superior Williams-Renault cars and hold them up, to the benefit of teammate Michael Schumacher.[11]

At the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix, the two Jordans of Damon Hill and Ralf Schumacher found themselves unexpectedly in the lead after a collision between Michael Schumacher and David Coulthard. Ralf Schumacher was subsequently ordered not to overtake Hill, to assure Jordan of a 1-2 finish.[1]

At the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix, Rubens Barrichello was ordered to allow Ferrari teammate Michael Schumacher to pass to obtain the win.[12] This received huge amounts of negative attention from the media, as the order was issued shortly before both drivers crossed the finish line. Both drivers were unhappy about the situation. Schumacher refused to take the top step of the podium and the centre seat, normally reserved to the winner, during the post-race press conference, and the team was punished for breach of podium procedure.[13] At the United States Grand Prix the very same year, Schumacher returned the favour by giving Barrichello the win by the record smallest margin of 0.011 seconds on the finishing line.

Barrichello said "To win, it was very, very, very good.... I got to the last corner, I didn't know what to do and nothing has been said. Michael was just very kind to, you know, let us finish equally. I guess I pointed a little bit in front, but, you know, what can we say?" Schumacher said "The end of the race was not planned. We tried to cross the line together but failed by a tiny bit and in fact we did not know who had won until we got out of the cars. I just felt Rubens deserved to win this race."

After the 2002 season, FIA announced that "Team Orders that could influence the outcome of a race" were banned,[14] although they were sometimes still implemented discreetly. For example, this has sometimes been achieved as easily as a team getting on the radio to the slower driver and pointing out that his teammate is quicker. The slower driver then lets the quicker driver through without the need for an overt "directive" from the team.[15] This happened, for example, at the 2010 Turkish Grand Prix, where Mark Webber was asked to slow down when his Red Bull teammate Sebastian Vettel was closing in. Webber disregarded the order, and the pair collided, each refusing to accept blame for the accident.[16] Similarly, at the 2010 German Grand Prix, Felipe Massa's race engineer Rob Smedley was heard to say to his driver "Fernando (Alonso) is faster than you. Can you confirm you understand that message?". Moments later, Massa eased back and allowed Alonso past.[15]

At the end of the season, the FIA conceded that the team orders rule wasn't working and needed to be reviewed. As of 2011, the team orders rule no longer appears in the sporting regulations.[17]

In the 2012 United States Grand Prix, Ferrari broke the FIA seal on the gearbox of Felipe Massa's car to trigger a 5 place grid penalty, to move him behind Fernando Alonso, and move both cars onto the "clean" side of the race track, to ensure Alonso the fastest start possible on the slippery asphalt on the brand new Circuit of the Americas.[18]

At the 2013 Malaysian Grand Prix, Red Bull driver Sebastian Vettel was criticised for passing his team-mate Mark Webber to win the race against "Multi 21", an order from his team to hold position.[19]

Perhaps the most controversial use of team orders was the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix, where the Renault F1 team used team orders to cause Nelson Piquet, Jr to crash deliberately on the fourteenth lap of the race so safety car could be triggered, to allow teammate Alonso to win the race.

The information was copied and pasted from Wikipedia. Was some interesting points, although Ferrari does seem to mentioned quite often.

Mat
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