Starting out - drowning vs swimming

[wdolson]

The first turn of the Grand Campaign is painful, but I've found subsequent turns take about as much effort as WitP did and you have aids you didn't have with WitP like more routing options for TFs that lessen the micromanagement.

Bill

[Roghain]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

... and you have aids ...

Bill

You don't say [X(]

But thanks for the headsup [:D]

[KenchiSulla]

Without work no reward.... It really is is not all that bad and dare I say, perhaps you should be less ambitious... Just go for it and figure out how it works along the way. Chances are you'll have all your carriers sunk on your first real encounter anyway...

No pain, no gain!

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: Roghain

Thanks Kull for stopping by and clarifying stuff. Much obliged for that as well as the tremendous sheet. As to figuring 'why', that's a given.

Last few weekends have been filled with other stuff and so not much has happened on the far-eastern front. Busy playing '2nd Fleet' and then there's the garden, housekeeping. Still, I must be really slow. So far I have been busy entering orders for about 10 hours or so and not even past the quarter mark on the spreadsheet. I need to speed up stuff or it will move from a 'chore' to 'boring work' and eventually to 'forgeddaboudit'. By now, I am beginning to think that the single most offsetting factor isn't the complexity, but the sheer amount of playing pieces one needs to give instructions to. I am, to be honest, only hanging in there because so many of you people can't be wrong about how great a game this is.

My advice is to create your own document with all the orders for the first turn. I have created a Word document for this purpose. Its first iterations were ten pages long. The latest one, amended in March 2015, has grown to twenty-one pages. Also, I devote about thirty save game slots just to turn one. You can input the orders in increments and backtrack if you feel you need to change them.

[jallison86]

ORIGINAL: Roghain

Still, I must be really slow. So far I have been busy entering orders for about 10 hours or so and not even past the quarter mark on the spreadsheet. I need to speed up stuff or it will move from a 'chore' to 'boring work' and eventually to 'forgeddaboudit'. By now, I am beginning to think that the single most offsetting factor isn't the complexity, but the sheer amount of playing pieces one needs to give instructions to. I am, to be honest, only hanging in there because so many of you people can't be wrong about how great a game this is.

I hear you...I'm in the same boat. I finally decided that I wasn't going to do all the stuff there, just some of it. Basically I am ignoring China. Say what you will about that, but I don't find it all that interesting and I don't think the war can be won or lost in China. I probably should have chosen the "Quiet China" scenario but that didn't occur to me until a whole bunch of time was spent issuing turn one orders and I don't really feel like redoing all that.

I feel that there are two broad areas that I don't have a good grip on:

* Supply sources and routing. In WitP you pretty much had Karachi and San Francisco as Allied supply sources. Great, one on each side of the map. Your job is to get supplies from there to your far flung forces. Waypoints would seem to make this a LOT easier in AE as you don't need to send your supply TF's to some point out in the boonies and remember to pull them in from there later. What I am not sure of is whether Karachi and SF will continue to be supply founts or if this function has been effectively moved to off-map locales like Eastern US and Cape Town. I guess we'll see

* Base forces scattered around the US and Canada. Do I need a base force in Ogden, UT? In Winnipeg? Probably not. Again, in WitP, I would move base forces from places like Portland or "USA" to SF for shipment to somewhere useful. The only thing to remember was to quickly move air units that showed up there later so they didn't rot from lack of support. I don't know if this same strategy will work in AE or not. Seems like kind of a PITA to catalog all these homeland forces and get them somewhere where there's fighting going on. But perhaps there is a subtlety here that I'm missing. Again, we'll see.

I pulled the trigger on turn 1 to see how the game plays. I'm just playing the AI so I'm happy to blunder through and learn by doing. I only hope I am not missing glaring things. There are still things in WitP I don't understand (like what are the EAB units for?), so I'm sure there will be much I'm missing here.

- Jeff

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: jallison86
I hear you...I'm in the same boat. I finally decided that I wasn't going to do all the stuff there, just some of it. Basically I am ignoring China. Say what you will about that, but I don't find it all that interesting and I don't think the war can be won or lost in China. I probably should have chosen the "Quiet China" scenario but that didn't occur to me until a whole bunch of time was spent issuing turn one orders and I don't really feel like redoing all that.

I feel that there are two broad areas that I don't have a good grip on:

* Supply sources and routing. In WitP you pretty much had Karachi and San Francisco as Allied supply sources. Great, one on each side of the map. Your job is to get supplies from there to your far flung forces. Waypoints would seem to make this a LOT easier in AE as you don't need to send your supply TF's to some point out in the boonies and remember to pull them in from there later. What I am not sure of is whether Karachi and SF will continue to be supply founts or if this function has been effectively moved to off-map locales like Eastern US and Cape Town. I guess we'll see

In North America, supply will gravitate towards the west coast ports. You can set the ports you want to use for supply points to draw more supply, but within a few months North America will be awash in supply. India can make enough supply for its own needs with a little extra, but you need to ship fuel from off map to keep the HI there going. Supply in the the Far East (west side of the map) will be a bit tight at times. You will get large supply convoys that arrive at Cape Town. I usually station some of the largest xAKs at Cape Town to haul this supply where it's needed.

* Base forces scattered around the US and Canada. Do I need a base force in Ogden, UT? In Winnipeg? Probably not. Again, in WitP, I would move base forces from places like Portland or "USA" to SF for shipment to somewhere useful. The only thing to remember was to quickly move air units that showed up there later so they didn't rot from lack of support. I don't know if this same strategy will work in AE or not. Seems like kind of a PITA to catalog all these homeland forces and get them somewhere where there's fighting going on. But perhaps there is a subtlety here that I'm missing. Again, we'll see.

In NA you need to train pilots. I usually use the permanently restricted base forces to build up every base over time. When bases get size 8 or 9, the air support doubles, which helps with training pilots with fewer base forces. Pilot training is an important part of long term strategy.

I pulled the trigger on turn 1 to see how the game plays. I'm just playing the AI so I'm happy to blunder through and learn by doing. I only hope I am not missing glaring things. There are still things in WitP I don't understand (like what are the EAB units for?), so I'm sure there will be much I'm missing here.

- Jeff

There are a couple of different types of engineer squads. Engineer squads just called "Engineers" or "Engineer Vehicle" are for building bases and fortifications. A lot of combat units have small cadres of building engineers, but EAB units are dedicated building units. Combat engineers are used for tearing down fortifications and assaults those squad types have a nationality included like "US Army Engineer". To maintain aircraft, you need Aviation Support squads in your unit. Air HQs are usually pure Aviation Support, base forces usually have a mix of building engineers, aviation support, AA, regular support, and radar.

Regular support is not absolutely necessary, but all non-support squads need support. Most combat units need external support to do things like recover fatigue, refit, train, etc. Having non-combat units with extra support in the hex will bring the entire hex up to enough support to maximize recovery and training effects.

Bill

[jallison86]

Thanks for the feedback...very useful. Will be poring over the manual looking for pilot training info as this is all new to me.

And apologies to Roghain for hijacking his thread.

- Jeff

[Roghain]

I realise I have been silent for a while. My bad. And no worries about hijacking this [;)]

Here's an update.

I have now spent close to 30 hours on entering orders to the Japanese units. I reckon I have done about 35-40% - if that. I am getting very, very bored and not motivated at all to get onwith it. I fear the second turn - having to run through the endless lists of units again and again, that not fun at all.
I must be missing somthing, because I really don't think I am that slow, or more stupid, or what-have-you. I just am not 'getting it'. And getting very annoyed too. I WANT to like this. I WANT to understand it - but that's just it. The rules, I understand most of the internal workings. Enough to play all small scenario's and win them against the AI. I understand the GUI (what little there is of it - I find it to be very, very user unfriendly). I just fail to find the screen that shows me aal units in Birma that have no orders. All units in DEI low on torpedoes.

I just don't seem to be able to run a turn at a reasonable pace, because I want to check all units. The lack of overview screens is, so far, the biggest stumbling block for me.
Now, this is all even BEFORE I played one turn. I just don't see how I could ever do this for 1400+ turns. That's not a game - thats a bloody day-job.

I must be missing something as quite a few of you mention the first turn to take 6-10 hours to set up, but I dunno what I can do to speed things up. Even given the fact that this is my first attempt, 40-60 hours that I am looking at for the first turn, that's just silly.

[cohimbra]

ORIGINAL: Roghain

I just don't seem to be able to run a turn at a reasonable pace, because I want to check all units.

Don't do it, you don't need it. You must force yourself to play light, step by step. It's not necessary at all that you set all order of all units all turns. There's an advice in Sardaukar AAR (for newbie) that I like and agree: DON'T PANIC! Game is immense, but you do not have to consume it all right away. Like family-size pizza, you can take it slice by slice [...] Remember, as Allies, you do not have to do everything during first turn.

[paradigmblue]

You're simply trying doing too much on the first turn. Even the very best and most detail oriented Japanese players will not issue orders to every unit. For the first turn, set up your attacks on Pearl, the Philippines and the DEI, and then call it good. Second turn, maybe look at China and begin consolidating your forces there. Next turn, look at sub operations, and the next work on consolidating your shipping and supply runs.

What I'm getting at is that if you try to do everything at once, it's going to feel un-fun and be completely overwhelming. Especially if you haven't played a Grand Campaign before, I would begin trying to do the minimum each turn. Let the game develop and then respond to the changing situation. By the time you're in January, you'll be naturally working on all aspects of the game organically. You'll have increased your Zero production, and probably your engines for your Zeroes, because you see that your current production isn't enough. You'll have started to import oil from the DEI because you'll see that your reserves aren't as large as they first look. You'll be formulating plans in China, and moving and preparing your ground forces appropriately.

The key is here that none of this had to happen on the first turn. In fact, if you try to touch every unit your first turn you'll probably be wasting effort, as the orders that you're issuing them - when you haven't even had contact with the enemy yet - will probably be obsolete a month from now. Having large operational plans and putting in the necessary preparation to pull them off is important, but those plans will change as the war changes. Don't feel like you have to fight battles that haven't happened yet.

[ndworl]

My senior military advisor thinks your guy needs a haircut.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: Roghain

I realise I have been silent for a while. My bad. And no worries about hijacking this [;)]

Here's an update.

I have now spent close to 30 hours on entering orders to the Japanese units. I reckon I have done about 35-40% - if that. I am getting very, very bored and not motivated at all to get onwith it. I fear the second turn - having to run through the endless lists of units again and again, that not fun at all.
I must be missing somthing, because I really don't think I am that slow, or more stupid, or what-have-you. I just am not 'getting it'. And getting very annoyed too. I WANT to like this. I WANT to understand it - but that's just it. The rules, I understand most of the internal workings. Enough to play all small scenario's and win them against the AI. I understand the GUI (what little there is of it - I find it to be very, very user unfriendly). I just fail to find the screen that shows me aal units in Birma that have no orders. All units in DEI low on torpedoes.

I just don't seem to be able to run a turn at a reasonable pace, because I want to check all units. The lack of overview screens is, so far, the biggest stumbling block for me.
Now, this is all even BEFORE I played one turn. I just don't see how I could ever do this for 1400+ turns. That's not a game - thats a bloody day-job.

I must be missing something as quite a few of you mention the first turn to take 6-10 hours to set up, but I dunno what I can do to speed things up. Even given the fact that this is my first attempt, 40-60 hours that I am looking at for the first turn, that's just silly.

It is very time intensive for the Japanese for the first year and in particular for the first 6mths. It had been suggested that some guys that are vet's of the game uploaded some of their opening moves, but there was little traction. Guess they didn't want to reveal too much.

Anyway Roghain, I'm glad you enjoyed my video's and the economic doc I did. I know it is a little heavy but it is what it is. I could actually include more but ... time is of the essence and I'm sure you guys love discovering nuances about the game rather than being told.

Cheers

[Roghain]

Haircut, eh? Mind if I let you inform my advisor/ I am kinda sorta attached to my limbs.

@ Damian - I do find them very insightful and of great help in understanding the inner workings of the game-engine. I do not intend to sound like a whiner - I really do appreciate all the help I found here. I will look into the advise now recently added in my 'wanting to do too much'. One of the members here offered to play against me in order to learn - I would like to take him up on that provided he can stand my slowness.
Perhaps I have been over-preparing. perhaps my experience with Victory Games' Pacific War boardgame and HoI has made my expectations look in the wrong way - I do have a large strategic plan, but I figured i needed to get things 'right' (FWIW) from the getgo.

This weekend I happen to have few chores, no social obligations other than eating and drinking so I am determined to try and get all things sorted and press 'end turn'. Maybe I am a fool into wanting to control everything and should I let things slide a tad and just try to enjoy myself.

or maybe is it good, to want to organise and structure everything when playing Japan. Cultural bias, I dunno.

I'll keep you posted.

And no offence!

[jallison86]

I find myself in something of the same situation as Roghain. I played through a few turns of the campaign as the Allies and found it getting pretty tedious. There are some things I love about AE: patrol zones, TF waypoints, and search arcs are great and add strategic/tactical nuance to the game. But a lot of things just feel overwhelming. *TONS* more bases. Maybe this winds up being a good thing in the long run, but at first I am just wondering why "San Francisco" wasn't good enough to represent US forces in the Bay Area. Lots of small divided ground units. Outside of a few specialized units (paras, Marine raiders) I am not sure going below regimental level in a game of this size is warranted. Units that are going to be withdrawn...I've read advice to ship them to the Eastern US to get them out of the way. That just feels like clutter. And the turns take so long that it's hard to try multiple approaches to things to see what works.

Anyway, I don't want to bash the game and I know most WitP fans love this version. So I probably need to be more patient, but it sure feels like this is more than I can handle.

- Jeff

[Kull]

ORIGINAL: jallison86

I find myself in something of the same situation as Roghain. I played through a few turns of the campaign as the Allies and found it getting pretty tedious. There are some things I love about AE: patrol zones, TF waypoints, and search arcs are great and add strategic/tactical nuance to the game. But a lot of things just feel overwhelming. *TONS* more bases. Maybe this winds up being a good thing in the long run, but at first I am just wondering why "San Francisco" wasn't good enough to represent US forces in the Bay Area. Lots of small divided ground units. Outside of a few specialized units (paras, Marine raiders) I am not sure going below regimental level in a game of this size is warranted. Units that are going to be withdrawn...I've read advice to ship them to the Eastern US to get them out of the way. That just feels like clutter. And the turns take so long that it's hard to try multiple approaches to things to see what works.

Anyway, I don't want to bash the game and I know most WitP fans love this version. So I probably need to be more patient, but it sure feels like this is more than I can handle.

- Jeff

Many of us not-so-jokingly refer to the game as "Logistics in the Pacific", and there's more than a little truth to that. Players really have to enjoy that aspect of the game, as that's the majority of your activity. Invasions and sea battles are great fun, but they are relatively infrequent (especially for the Allied player at the start, well, other than serving as a punching bag). And worse (better?) your plans won't be successful if the player hasn't done his homework and built up bases, moved supplies and fuel, trained pilots properly, etc, etc.

It's a BIG GAME, in every sense.

[paradigmblue]

Edit: Whoops, wrong topic.

[n01487477]

ORIGINAL: jallison86

I find myself in something of the same situation as Roghain. I played through a few turns of the campaign as the Allies and found it getting pretty tedious. There are some things I love about AE: patrol zones, TF waypoints, and search arcs are great and add strategic/tactical nuance to the game. But a lot of things just feel overwhelming. *TONS* more bases. Maybe this winds up being a good thing in the long run, but at first I am just wondering why "San Francisco" wasn't good enough to represent US forces in the Bay Area. Lots of small divided ground units. Outside of a few specialized units (paras, Marine raiders) I am not sure going below regimental level in a game of this size is warranted. Units that are going to be withdrawn...I've read advice to ship them to the Eastern US to get them out of the way. That just feels like clutter. And the turns take so long that it's hard to try multiple approaches to things to see what works.

Anyway, I don't want to bash the game and I know most WitP fans love this version. So I probably need to be more patient, but it sure feels like this is more than I can handle.

- Jeff

And there is always the original witp which in some ways is a little "lighter" but still a load of fun

[kfmiller41]

I have been watching this thread for a while and finally offered to play Roghain (PMd him), as I am myself getting back in the game after a long time away and have always been a rather conventional player in regards to the kind of game I play. Tend to think historically (as i read a lot about this theater of the war) so I don't go to far off the reservation looking for ways to game the system. (I understand why players do though). Feel like a new player would feel less threatened by the games learning curve if his opponent is in the same boat. That offer holds to any newbie who wants to do it that way. I have time and just plain enjoyed the game when I was playing.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: miller41

I have been watching this thread for a while and finally offered to play Roghain (PMd him), as I am myself getting back in the game after a long time away and have always been a rather conventional player in regards to the kind of game I play. Tend to think historically (as i read a lot about this theater of the war) so I don't go to far off the reservation looking for ways to game the system. (I understand why players do though). Feel like a new player would feel less threatened by the games learning curve if his opponent is in the same boat. That offer holds to any newbie who wants to do it that way. I have time and just plain enjoyed the game when I was playing.

Good luck to both of you in your game!

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Roghain

I must be missing something as quite a few of you mention the first turn to take 6-10 hours to set up, but I dunno what I can do to speed things up. Even given the fact that this is my first attempt, 40-60 hours that I am looking at for the first turn, that's just silly.

Much like publishing a journal paper, the first turn process requires brevity, but still needs to make a point and stick to it. Yes, it takes an inordinate amount of time, but like others have said, don't feel as though you have to get it all done at once.

For myself, it *still* takes 20-25 hours for the first turn. But I've done it before too and know what I'm trying to do. To achieve ahistorical results, there is a premium on speed and audacity in the first few turns. One can't accomplish this by omitting much of the needful. Then again, my opinion is that you shouldn't be attempting to squeeze the nth degree out of your first PBEM game.

Again, like journal submissions, once you start getting sick to death of looking at the thing (after about the 7th revision) then put it in the mail and be done with it. It will probably work out in the long run.