Killer first turn?

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ETF
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Killer first turn?

Post by ETF »

Anyone have a killer first turn (German) main grand campaign...? Just getting back into this game. Wanted to see how the pros do it?

Will trade you some nice books on the eastern front (digital) that I have already read :)

Thanks!
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chaos45
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by chaos45 »

Search Peltons first turns, he posted his first turn somewhere and its pretty good. He has alot of AARs posted.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Callistrid »

MKtours had better start.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by chaos45 »

About the same really....also can be some variance in opening moves just because you are relying on almost all hasty attacks which can have massive variances in success/failure. Turn 2 Mktours tooks some different routes of advance which were only allowed because Sapper left some very obvious holes in his defenses.

T1 Soviet player should always get at least 1 division to VL, and at least garrison the immediate area around Kiev...preferrably even having a screen on kiev more to the west to prevent the encirclement MKtours did. Sapper pulled everything to make a hard Pskov defense and the Germans just went where he wasnt- its why I dont think trying a hard stand at Pskov makes sense- need to screen/delay the germans at pskov because you sacrifice to much from everywhere else to make a hard stand there by T2.

So if you have a couple hasty attacks fail at the wrong time it can really set you back.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by HITMAN202 »

Pelton's the man, but things are changing as little tweaks in each patch influence what may be deemed as the best, but for simple principles.

1) Make pockets to isolate units. Don't rout them to kingdom come. More than 15 units routed 1st turn from all 3 fronts is too many IMO. Routs northward in AGN and eastward in AGS will probably get isolated on turn 2, but minimizing routs is key.

2) Carefully plan the FBD's advance (RR repair.) Overprotect them. Crucial.

3) Plan leader changes and AG and Corp organization. It's probably best to put on paper how you want your armies organized by turn 6 and then proceed. Don't wing it.

4) Get you infantry moving to the Soviet lines ASAP. Create clear lanes of converted hexes for your infantry in all AG's on turn 1. Infantry divisions are the hammer.

5) Practice, practice. AGN is easy, AGC you have to be careful with securing it's southern border, and AGS takes a lot of experience to turn the triple play.. 1)Solid pocket east of XVII Corp, 2)Pocket just south of Rovno, and 3) Secure Lvov pocket. Also a line of converted hexes just north of Proskurov adds icing to the cake.

6) Ignore rule #4 for all Germans divisions with less than a 76 morale. Roughly four attacks will guarantee a 76 or higher morale. So make them. After that morale increase is very slow. Per my Yoda (Pelton), "Morale is King."

These are simple principles. The problem is that simple things are often hard to do.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Peltonx »

Not the best, but I say #2 other then MT's.

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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Peltonx »

You can get some amazingly high morale if you stack leaders from Corp to OKH level.

I generally set up 4th PG as Super Army now.

Move I Corp into it and all the 90+ morale infantry divisions. Put all hvy guns and 3 pioneers per divisions and you can roll Leningrad.
LW also needs all the Stukas.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by M60A3TTS »

Are nebelwerfers considered heavy guns?
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by HITMAN202 »

I think anything over 240 mm. So yes.

Pelton, my Yoda, my Kemosabe, you are wrong (I think) that stacking HQ's helps increase morale following combat. You took me by surprise, but I ran +200 combats with every level of HQ's up to OKH adjacent to the infantry divisions, and it helped zippo, nada, a big zero. Perdome, my Master.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Are nebelwerfers considered heavy guns?

over 150, not 150 and yes they are.

You can only have so many per battle so 6 guns and 2 hvy nebs per corp with 6 in army HQs.

This are the only guns and pioneers I put above 51 ToE, 71 ToE

Then I put 6 per panzer HQer and 2 per infantry HQ's
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

I think anything over 240 mm. So yes.

Pelton, my Yoda, my Kemosabe, you are wrong (I think) that stacking HQ's helps increase morale following combat. You took me by surprise, but I ran +200 combats with every level of HQ's up to OKH adjacent to the infantry divisions, and it helped zippo, nada, a big zero. Perdome, my Master.

while I am in awe of your commitment to proper statistical testing and in equal awe at Pelton's practical skills ... I think you maybe both right and wrong.

I'm not sure that a good command chain stacks leadership impact in any meaningful way, but it does significantly minimise the chance of missing a check? I'm wonder if you'd see the same if you used some Soviet 2-4 numpties in charge? So I'd expect a good chain to smooth the post combat morale gain - which is what you are reporting. Whereas with the weaker (& shorter) Soviet chains I'd expect to see more variability.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Peltonx »

Yes and some of the leaders are very good and have good admin, mech, morale and infantry skills 7+ in every area.

So your chances of failing any of the 4 rolls is much smaller.

Just Kluge in charge of OKH your talking a 5 morale to 9 morale leader, that's a huge difference over time.

The impact is greater each step down the chain of command.

I think your right with SHC, but you can still min the range so over time your better off and win more rolls.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by HITMAN202 »

I think we are talking about two different things. My point is that after, after, a combat victory morale increase is not influenced by leader morale at any level. Leader morale obvious modifies combat strength and a greater chance of victory. But in and of itself leader morale does not increase the chance of a unit gaining morale after combat.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by morvael »

No, leader morale rolls help to increase unit morale after victorious combat, and prevent decrease after lost combat.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by HITMAN202 »

As always, morvael is correct. However, the benefit is infinitesimal for morale increases over 80. There may be a 10-15% increase, so instead of a +0.25 increase, maybe a 0.27 or 0.28 per victory.

However, for units starting with a 70 morale, that same 10-15 % increase may make a difference. With the XXVIII 3 divisons (one transferred from the X) all 70 morale led by Witkorin (4 morale) averaged 76.5 after 6 hasty attacks.

Replacing Wiktorin with Model ( 9 morale) the average was 78.2.

I ran 100 attacks with each.

Could it be better when farming morale, early 41 and post blizzard, to attach your 8-9 morale leaders with the weak infantry for the sole purpose to increase morale rapidly ??
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

As always, morvael is correct. However, the benefit is infinitesimal for morale increases over 80.
There may be a 10-15% increase, so instead of a +0.25 increase, maybe a 0.27 or 0.28 per victory.

However, for units starting with a 70 morale, that same 10-15 % increase may make a difference. With the XXVIII 3 divisons (one transferred from the X) all 70 morale led by Witkorin (4 morale) averaged 76.5 after 6 hasty attacks.

Replacing Wiktorin with Model ( 9 morale) the average was 78.2.

I ran 100 attacks with each.

Could it be better when farming morale, early 41 and post blizzard,
to attach your 8-9 morale leaders with the weak infantry for the sole purpose to increase morale rapidly ??

Silly pants like this.

The chain matters not one leader and I work the best chain on 1 army.

I think your math is off just a little or you not looking at it with the right formula


6-7 attacks and 4 points gained, some turns 2 total lucky turns I have seen 6 pts gained by 1 division and the other 2 4 pts.

vs M60 I had 9 divisions over 90 morale going into 42 and I pushed him around like a rag doll




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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by M60A3TTS »

Pelton, if you are trying to impress people with your exploits, it won't help you throwing my name about.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Cavalry Corp »

I would like to see Pelton start with the 43 or 44 campaign, see if he can recover the situation. That would be interesting to follow.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by M60A3TTS »

ORIGINAL: Pelton
ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

As always, morvael is correct. However, the benefit is infinitesimal for morale increases over 80.
There may be a 10-15% increase, so instead of a +0.25 increase, maybe a 0.27 or 0.28 per victory.

However, for units starting with a 70 morale, that same 10-15 % increase may make a difference. With the XXVIII 3 divisons (one transferred from the X) all 70 morale led by Witkorin (4 morale) averaged 76.5 after 6 hasty attacks.

Replacing Wiktorin with Model ( 9 morale) the average was 78.2.

I ran 100 attacks with each.

Could it be better when farming morale, early 41 and post blizzard,
to attach your 8-9 morale leaders with the weak infantry for the sole purpose to increase morale rapidly ??

Silly pants like this.

The chain matters not one leader and I work the best chain on 1 army.

I think your math is off just a little or you not looking at it with the right formula


6-7 attacks and 4 points gained, some turns 2 total lucky turns I have seen 6 pts gained by 1 division and the other 2 4 pts.

vs M60 I had 9 divisions over 90 morale going into 42 and I pushed him around like a rag doll

Do you see any German leaders get moved up from morale 8 -> 9 during the course of a game? That would seem hard as I don't ever recall a Soviet leader, even Zhukov, make it to that level.
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RE: Killer first turn?

Post by Peltonx »


[/quote]

Do you see any German leaders get moved up from morale 8 -> 9 during the course of a game? That would seem hard as I don't ever recall a Soviet leader, even Zhukov, make it to that level.

[/quote]

Can not say that I have, never seen it now that you ask.
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