first impressions feedback

[zakblood]

with 4 video's watched and listened to now a few times, manual still left untouched, i now feel i have the basics to not only understand the game a bit more, but also now try the tutorials in earnest (slight issue with sounds and a rouge codec's file, but that's also sorted now)

my first impressions of playing the game is the leaning curve is off the scale tbh and not the easiest game to learn for the beginner to medium level player which i class my self to be, but saying that now it's a bit mute and after the video's to watch and learn from i'd say it's down to manageable for most, as if i can do it, anyone can, without the video's and manuals only, then no chance for my level of ability, so do feel sorry for those at the start who didn't have that sort of help.

map size and layout is very good and expands on what has already been done with WITE (which i still haven't put more than 10 hours into max in over a few years) colours and information is clearly at hand and easy to use and understand imo.

sounds and music are good, but i always turn music off in settings in the first few seconds of getting any game.

counters are standard Nato ones which i hate btw so have chosen to use Red Lancer counter set for none Nato lovers like me, which i thank him for as not everyone can play or understand or even wants to understand Nato ones and maybe never will.

scenarios are plenty and scope is for short term and my good is it that time already, where has my life gone long ones, so enough to please almost everyone, with also ability as well, as small is easier to learn on before you take on the massive ones.

game play is straight forward when it's almost all been explained to you in the video's, manual not really needed until later on for reference and more depth, for me it's better to not look at it at first or it will put you off the game as it's too long, too complex and tbh not needed in a war game, but a war sim then that's another groghead question, if you know what it means, then nothing is every complex enough for you

game time needed to learn the basic's to play and understand and maybe even win the first tutorial, 4 to 8 hours at my learning and skill ability, 8 to 12 hours to be comfortable to change stuff, 24 hours to first modded file done and played. nothing other than first tutorial has been touched / played or loaded as yet as this is feedback and first impressions only...

playability for newer players on a scale of 1 to 10, for me is 1 without the video help and manuals only, even the quick play ones, but goes to 5 with the video's and maybe 8 with both being used later on.

editor, the hidden jewel in the crown for most games now days, really good and easy to use, while i have only done basic stuff in it, the scale of scope of the options i can do, will keep me happy for a long time and tbh i'll never go online, never player another human player with it, and maybe even won't try most of the battles more than a odd time to learn more how stuff plays, but the editor for me will be hammered to death, so thanks for this.

final comments, would i recommend the game?

well that all depends on your level of ability, time to play, area of like, as not everyone likes the west battles at all, same as the east imo, but if asked if i think it's either a good or bad game i'd have to say it's not great, it's very very good, take what you have learnt from the start and learning curve, video's and other comments and add that all together and when you do WITE2 or anything else for that matter, and that will be epic if done right.

final, final comments, regarding design, it (the game) needs to be accessible for all with a learning curve that all can mastered with video and manuals / guides to help done from day one, not a after thought, with as much or as little AI help in the game / menu's so can be turned on or off at will / users choice...

well done i'm really enjoying it so far and look forward to using the editor to make my own now, not that there's nothing wrong with the game ones, i just want something different so will tweak bits here and there for myself...

how to make the next one better, imo get a tester or 2 that aren't grogheads to test it in early alpha stages as by beta it's sometimes to late to change major things or some design and direction decisions, input from lower ability players may help the direction from the start as much as the help from later long term beta testers do in bug finding and balancing after hours / weeks of play testing, well that's my opinion anyway for what it's worth, and i'd say the same for most games of a certain level, the ability pool needs to be a very mixed bag...

[Joel Billings]

Thanks very much for taking the time to post this feedback. Hopefully it will be useful to others wondering about exactly how difficult WitW is to get into. Your comments raise an interesting issue that I've been thinking about regarding the audience for WitW.

It seems to me that most players that buy WitW do so with the goal of ultimately playing the full campaign. They do so realizing it's going to take a long time, but somehow they are drawn to the idea of playing it, even if they don't ultimately make it through an entire game. This can be true for both those just looking to play against the AI and those looking to play human opponents. They may try some of the shorter scenarios, but this is just in order to learn different aspects of the game before tackling the full campaign. The short scenarios are not seen as an end in themselves, and are not the reason why most players purchase the game. Gary doesn’t play his own games, but Pavel and I do, and we both feel that there’s a lot of fun to be had in some of the non-campaign scenarios. This was true with WitE, especially with the expansion scenarios, and true for WitW as well. However, I’ve played my share of monster board and computer games to know that the draw of the campaign is what calls out to most players interested in games like WitE/WitW.

So the question is, how many beginning players are there that are interested in playing a campaign that’s going to take hundreds of hours to play, and many more hours if you want to be good at it. I’m thinking not many. War in the East was intentionally designed as an IGOUGO system to be more accessible and easier to jump in and play. We didn’t have video tutorials, nor did we have the great Player’s Handbook that John created for WitW, but we did have a tutorial guide written by a few of the game’s testers. No doubt it’s best if we have the videos and player’s handbook with all our games, but there are limits on what we can do as a small developer that relies on a lot of volunteer help.

With WitW things got more complicated as we tried to address the weaknesses pointed out by the WitE community. The big one was the simplicity of the air war in WitE, and the ability to game the system. That, along with the need to better cover the strategic and naval air war led us to add the WEGO air resolution phase, which only increased the complexity of the game as player’s had to learn a more complex air system that was very different from the land system. Adding fixed airfields on the map was a big step up in realism, but took away from the ease of use of the air game in WitE. We think it was the right thing to do for the game, but it may have cost us some ease of play, especially for those that don’t want to spend as much time with the air game.

I’m not trying to take away from your comments which are very reasonable. Just thought I’d give you my thoughts on some of the issues you raised.

[Rosseau]

Talking about WitE now, but playing the campaign is the last thing I am interested in. I have WitW and assume the same. What has saved WitE for me is the smaller scenarios that come with the two DLC's and the editor. Honestly, it's just way to cumbersome for me. Significantly more work than DB:Warsaw to Paris, which is somewhat counter intensive. DB:Case Blue fortunately offers some smaller battles.

I totally appreciate the attention to detail. But realistically, how many players are going to use the higher level combat resolution that takes forever. Typically, I'll look at the air battles and then exit. It's impressive, but just over the top. And I am a Matrix World in Flames player who taught myself to play the game solitaire. Maybe including a Battle of Britain or Sea Lion in an upcoming DLC to show off the air war would be cool. But battles need to scale down, not up, imo. It's still a game every serious wargamer should experience.

[zakblood]

i can only answer this as myself, with limited knowledge of both WITE and now with WITW and very little time spent over the years on groghead levels / ability type games,

So the question is, how many beginning players are there that are interested in playing a campaign that’s going to take hundreds of hours to play, and many more hours if you want to be good at it. I’m thinking not many.

and as a direct reply to your question (and thanks for the reply in the first place) none plain and simple answer, i have no interest in any of the campaigns for one even with being retired i couldn't find the time for that amount of input / time spent on a game and 2nd, tbh also i would get bored i'm sorry to say, as unless you fully immerse yourself in the finer details of the game and fully understand it, you may or may not appreciate it at all, while i love war games and have played them for at least 30+ years now, i need to play at my ability level, which is below easy on this level of game.

saying all of this above sounds like i don't like it maybe, which would be wrong, neither do i dislike the game, or concept, both i find very good indeed, so i'll try and explain my position a bit further so more can understand the point i'm trying to make.

the game has many smaller battles to fight, with less time needed to learn and play, so to master takes less with given the time in putted and the enjoyment returned against hours spent, so for me as at medium level player is the only option, ramp up the battles to a campaign and the time and experience needed is maybe beyond not only my ability to understand / learn or willingness to spend that amount of time even on it, yes you can save and spread it over years if you want, but that involves long term planning, something that no none groghead maybe able to do with a limited gaming knowledge or history / geography or a combination of all, while some may attempt it and lose maybe, the time spent with the end result being either a loss or a major disaster, gives the player a feeling of either failure or the core understanding that they are out of their depths maybe, so while some with try a second time, most would imo go back to either basics or something else that catches their eye.

so for me there is a few types of players, which the game caters for, low to medium level of ability like myself, who not only buy more games, but also have more in a collection, maybe a mixed bag of all sorts of games, those who take the jump into a campaign but maybe wouldn't play it all till the end, then there's same ability group who would, but for a guess my group would be the biggest...

then there's the grogheads, buy less games in general, and spend every bit of free time on one until they have 5 or 6, 5 star generals and 10+ or more campaigns won and play most games until completed and utterly won on most if not all levels.

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replies for other questions,

the air campaign isn't that complex if you don't like me have much understanding in it like me, with my limited knowledge and game time spent, i just leave it most of the time to the AI, as i want to fight a ground war and don't have much interest in the air, or sea for that matter, and none on supply so it's good much of it can be handled by the AI, in the smaller battle fought so far, none have really come into play much so this maybe all wrong regarding the larger campaigns, and one of the reasons i maybe won't be doing them.

the ground battle, is well quite easy on the tutorials with all the help on, set to easy and giving yourself 200 of everything in the options, i managed on my first play to get a minor victory and was well happy, which brings me to another point, my level of ability group likes a challenge but only at the level of what we are at, this game for me gives me that, when you get hammered and beaten to much, you soon loose interest at my level of ability as it's no fun too loose to often, same as it's no fun if there's no challenge and you win too much, so game balance needs to be good, and for all ability groups, which is a major job, the game does this very well imo.

supply, well the AI does it for you so no real need to comment on it, yes later on and at a higher difficulty level, you have to, but that's your choice of play style, i'm only commenting on my level of ability group.

HQ same answer as above for supply.

do i think it's harder or easier than WITE? well i've already spent more time on WITW than WITE so for me i'd say yes it is easier (WITW that is easier than WITE), as the AI does hold your hand a bit more in WITW if you need it to, which imo is good, but also like the fact that you can alter some of it so it gets harder gradually and doesn't just left go and left you drown in the groghead levels of high end despair, and i hold my hat off to all who play it on uber hard levels, something i'll never be able or want to do.

so i'll finish off my first impressions by saying would i'd recommend the game to any level of ability? even beginners? well yes if and only if you have the time and will / ability to watch some great video's, use the player handbook later on and stick with the smaller battles after first doing the tutorials first and playing them more than a few times over and over again until you not only master them but win them... will give good returns on money spent and hours of fun given, just never read or mention the manual to this group or you have lost them or turned them off all together, and make sure the player manual or games has another setting for below easy with 200 of everything used in it like what i use, then it will be set up right for nooobs like beginners, something that we have all been at one stage but most forget...

would i recommend it to my level of ability level group? well yes, as it's more designed for it from almost from the start now the help is in place with video's, and player handbook, but still at my level the manual should only be used to reach stuff off high shelves if your small lol

grogheads don't need a recommendation from anyone, as they knew it was coming before it was made, as they read the stars...

Gary doesn’t play his own games, but Pavel and I do

then maybe, and it's only a suggestion, that at least one from each ability group gets taken on next time for alpha and beta's, as if they are all hard core grogheads, then the only replies you will get are the same, this bullet flies too slow from that gun, this tank has 2mm thicker frontal armour and this depot is in the wrong hex, all good feedback, but maybe some from a lower perspective may give more results regarding sales, as for every groghead i'd say there are a 100 normal level ability players, and that goes up again 1000 fold for beginner to new player who imo could play this easily with a bit more help, now on offer and enjoy it, maybe a beginners box set, cheaper with no manual but instead a printed players handbook only and the video's mentioned more, and a new piece of paper in the box explaining how to set up the game for each level of ability see pic below



mind you even this above maybe wrong as im not yet sure if stuff for the AI should be on or off lol and again i say thanks for a great game, and also agree with rosseau who posted it as i wrote my novel lol, edited it and checked for spelling again and again...[&o][&o][&o]

[zakblood]

how to make the game more accessible and easier for the mass market, which it's quite capable of being marketed and played by most if they choose to,

http://www.matrixgames.com/store/507/Ga ... n.the.West

first make it more user friendly with the main page, add in information about how it caters for all ability and types of players, not wait for joe blogs like me and others to do it / suggests it etc

atm the link above is viewed and tbh will put most off as it's all about the biggest the most complex most ambitious and detailed computer wargame on the Western Front of World War II ever made.

well there and then you have put most off right from the start and only sold it to the ones who were only ever going to buy it in the first place, grogheads.

nowhere does it says playable by all levels of ability with the AI being able to take over this that and the other, no good expecting everyone to read a 100 forum posts to glean what information isn't mentioned.

build up the smaller battles, and mention which would suit what level of player, style and ability...

Operation Husky – 3 July 44 to 20 August 45 (7 turns)

Breakout and Pursuit – 25 July 44 to 9 Oct 44 (11 turns)

Westwall – 17 Sept 44 to 10 Dec 44 (12 turns)

Bulge to the Rhine – 16 Dec 44 to 10 Mar 45 (12 turns)

i'm not saying little grandma will pick it up and love it either as i'm not stupid, but neither do i think that the console crowd will either as for them it's fps or nothing for most, just saying if it was mentioned more often the good or better parts then maybe it would attract more to it, there has been plenty of negative posts, with me as much as anyone posting in there, but the info i was given doesn't add up to the game on offer so once i played it, my mind was changed, yes it's still massive on a epic scale and uber hard groghead standard, but with some tweaks, a few vids and the players guides, it can become alot less than the sum of all it's parts, talk less about a 400 odd page book, as if we want to read we get a book,not a manual, most come here and buy it to play a game, not re fight a sim...

so alter the approach maybe, change a few comments, write a below easy guide for idiots, so i can read it and understand it, as a picture says a 1000 words, so video's work for low & medium type gamers, manuals don't and put more offf than it will attract, grogheads need manuals or they won't buy it, so cater for both and you will sell more, which in return we get another game sooner, more addon's / DLC / missions, campaigns, battles etc and in the end cheaper, as if more buy it, the cost gets spread out over a bigger field, so it's win win imo.

now that's the easy part done, next is the harder part, how to write it, you don't, you already have video, just adapt the video to teach the game, this way if it can be watched then played you don't need it written, how to set up for below easy in the menu's, how to play the tutorial, how to win and what's happening etc etc, do this with a minimum spend and i'm sure the time and money will be well spent with the influx of fence sitters who are waiting for it's either first sale, all minor bugs to be fixed or it's first major update and DLC.

well that's it for today, novel well and truly written, now back to testing some other beta's, my normal retired day job...


and before anyone skips to the bottom first to moan (it's a really really good game so buy it, play it, love it, moan about it, do what ever you like, just enjoy it and life)

[simcityrefund]

i toohave similar viewsof zakblod but i found youtube videosbut there should be more tooltip on map when you scroll over like in ageod games rather than openingtabs

[zakblood]

glad to here it and you bought it all the same, did you know before you bought it? or just liked the look and bought it all the same?

it's nice to stay on topic and also positive on some thing we all share in common, comment on a great game for others to enjoy, so fence sitters and none WITE or W for that matter none players, dive in and enjoy it, don't be put off by some comments or views, even if they were mine pre bought, now i've been converted, and if i can learn it, i'd hazzard a guess at almost anyone can, while some may not find it enjoyable so it's not for everyone, it does a very good job of displaying the western front in ww2, and i've only played the tutorials so far from the Allied side so have no idea about he rest either as yet...

[zakblood]

well it taken a while but my first tutorial win, lol



seems i still have a way to go for a battle result higher than minor but it's a start, so 3 battles now in on the first tutorial and so far really enjoying it, need to learn some more about everything but it's more fun winning than loosing so for now i'm happy with any sort of win[:D] [;)]

while i tried to follow a guide,

Code: Select all

http://www.combinedops.com/husky.htm

Code: Select all

http://totallyhistory.com/operation-husky/

i didn't always stick to plan or have it go my way either, but fun all the same, need to reply it now until a get a better result, then and only then will i move on to the next one maybe if i haven't made my own by then[&o][&o][&o]

[simcityrefund]

I did now know the game I played total war/paradox interactive before (Hoi3) so I was like Ill try this one it was very steep in price 110aud so I wanted to have my hours worth on it by posting on this thread

[cmunson]

It seems to me that most players that buy WitW do so with the goal of ultimately playing the full campaign. They do so realizing it's going to take a long time, but somehow they are drawn to the idea of playing it, even if they don't ultimately make it through an entire game.

Guilty as charged. I only wish they all started in 1939.

[zakblood]

agreed

[luthiens]

And maybe a couple of new scenarios: Spain 1936+ and AOI - Abissinia 1935+ would love them!

[zakblood]

welcome to the forum and board luthiens, glad to have you with us, hope you are enjoying the game, feel free to comment on anything game related and great first post, mine was rubbish lol

[luthiens]

Hey Zakblood, many thanks for your warm welcome. Be sure I'll do!

[zakblood]

well WITE just gone live on steam, didn't see that coming so next question is, how long before this goes the same way?

you knew it was going to be asked, just by who and when i guess[:D][;)]

[&o][&o][&o]

steam key incoming[8|][X(]

[zakblood]

well it seems WITE has gone down well on steam let's hope this follows suit, for me it's easier and tbh the more than see it, the more that maybe buy it, so it's all good, hopefully now things may settle down a bit, i'd still like the freedom to do as i like in any game so still will use the editor more than the game battles themselves maybe, but that's my choice and it's always nice to have the choice, so thanks for that[&o][&o][&o]

so far very positive on the game, easier than WITE imo but harder in your chances to win earlier on maybe, not too sure as not really played much of either much, less than 20 hours for WITE and maybe nowhere near than on WITW as yet, but really spending time on the editor so will soon ramp that up past the 200+ that i've spent so for on the east editor[X(][8|]