HJ (SHC) vs Pelton T1-T4 Soviet pics

[Peltonx]

Turn 10 GHC Armaments: 80,000 Manpower: 31,000 VP: 180

Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Stavka OOB: 4,473,000 + 73,000
GHC OOB:
Units in a Pocket: 16

AGN pushes forward.
If I had left LVI PC here I be in Leningrad already, but there are better targets near Moscow.

[Peltonx]

AGC pockets the 16 units that were saved by mud as few turns ago and turns the flank. I have transferred 16th Army down here along with 1 PC to see if I can take Moscow.

[Peltonx]

AGS is stuck in a wash of high CV units, guess I will do 3 HQBUs and move infantry up next turn and do a full offensive turn 12.

[Peltonx]

Turn 12 GHC Armaments: 80,000 Manpower: 31,000 VP: 180

Russian Units Destroyed after November 1st 1941
Corp:
Divisions:
Brigades:
SU:
AP total:
Stavka OOB: 4,524,000
GHC OOB:

Leningrad will fall.

[Peltonx]

Moscow will fall, its full of industry and cut off

[Peltonx]

Large pocket and industry cut off.

[loki100]

that was quick [;)]

[M60A3TTS]

You could tell from the T9 screenshot in the south that the middle would be weak. Any motorized division with a CV of 4+ needs to be defending Moscow. They don't have the MPs to have much offensive value unless they are attacking in place. That implies you have the mid defenses strong enough to negate the need to move that motorized division back much if at all after combat. If you try that in the south, they're just pocket material. Also, most of those cavalry divisions don't belong there and should cover Moscow. They soak up a lot of attacks since they rout less often than rifle units.

And for the new guys... don't waste APs building FZs at Stalino and the adjacent cites. Any experienced German player will go around the cities and isolate it before winter. The one southern place you do want an FZ in is Rostov which isn't the sure thing that Stalino is.

[VigaBrand]

Peltons flexibility killed him. If you look at the old AARs from Pelton, you see one plan very often. First taking Leningrad, reinforce Army Group Center with the tanks from AG North after taking Leningrad and push to Moscow. Here, pelton sees the weak spot in the Center and strikes with great skills and change is first object. Thats great strategical skill.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: VigaBrand

Peltons flexibility killed him. If you look at the old AARs from Pelton, you see one plan very often. First taking Leningrad, reinforce Army Group Center with the tanks from AG North after taking Leningrad and push to Moscow. Here, pelton sees the weak spot in the Center and strikes with great skills and change is first object. Thats great strategical skill.

I figured out u only need 1 infantry army + 4th PG with 3 panzer divisions and a few elite infantry divisions to take Leningrad or make Stavka over commit

Should have smoked Chaos the same way, but takes a long time to teach an old dog a new trick

[chaos45]

IDK again I see issues with the combat system especially allowing AGN with less assets to get same results against a very committed Soviet defense- just spun myself up on the history of the leningrad operations some this afternoon....AGN lost all offensive capability when its armor got pulled historically and it was requiring the use of all 7 panzer/motorized divisions to make the progress it did.

So in turn if German High command pulls half AGN armor support that should doom the leningrad campaign....as you can see in the game system it does not.

Heres hoping next patch makes more graphics soldiers and vehicles die in combat so we can get some realistic results.

Also as to WiTE2-----please have an orders setting for dedication of the defense or a unit for the soviets thats limits but makes a hex hold at all costs. Several board games give the Soviets a limited amount of NKVD political units that cant be rebuilt but in effect make a hex that are in hold at all costs- the result is it modifies combat tables to be bloodier for both sides and prevents retreats.....or better yet make a fortified unit that you can only have a limited amount of that does the same thing.

Soviets should have this type of unit available for situations such as leningrad/moscow/stalingrad were they just feed units into the meat grinder and retreat wasnt an option.

The Germans should prolly have a very limited amount of similar type units to represent the stands at Bresalua and Konigsburg.

Another issue for leningrad is there is no Soviet navy....beached Soviet naval artillery was a huge factor in why leningrad held.....the fortified zones dont have near the firepower of constant naval gunnery.....unless you update the leningrad fort zones to more than normal as special case with super heavy artillery and more manpower to make them worth keeping around when they germans get adjacent. they even dismounted some of cruiser guns and used them in land artillery strongpoints. Bet defending 8inch gun batteries would make German attacks abit more brutal.

[MattFL]

Wow, things fell apart for Shc mighty quickly. Center never recovered from land bridge mistake several turns ago. Toast...

Chaos man , it's a game first and foremost and the best one I'm aware of on this topic. Pelton isn't exposing flaws in the game in this and your game, he's exposing SHC errors. Play the game and play it well as you did in'41 and the history will take care of itself...

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

IDK again I see issues with the combat system especially allowing AGN with less assets to get same results against a very committed Soviet defense- just spun myself up on the history of the leningrad operations some this afternoon....AGN lost all offensive capability when its armor got pulled historically and it was requiring the use of all 7 panzer/motorized divisions to make the progress it did.

So in turn if German High command pulls half AGN armor support that should doom the leningrad campaign....as you can see in the game system it does not.

Heres hoping next patch makes more graphics soldiers and vehicles die in combat so we can get some realistic results.

Also as to WiTE2-----please have an orders setting for dedication of the defense or a unit for the soviets thats limits but makes a hex hold at all costs. Several board games give the Soviets a limited amount of NKVD political units that cant be rebuilt but in effect make a hex that are in hold at all costs- the result is it modifies combat tables to be bloodier for both sides and prevents retreats.....or better yet make a fortified unit that you can only have a limited amount of that does the same thing.

Soviets should have this type of unit available for situations such as leningrad/moscow/stalingrad were they just feed units into the meat grinder and retreat wasnt an option.

The Germans should prolly have a very limited amount of similar type units to represent the stands at Bresalua and Konigsburg.

Another issue for leningrad is there is no Soviet navy....beached Soviet naval artillery was a huge factor in why leningrad held.....the fortified zones dont have near the firepower of constant naval gunnery.....unless you update the leningrad fort zones to more than normal as special case with super heavy artillery and more manpower to make them worth keeping around when they germans get adjacent. they even dismounted some of cruiser guns and used them in land artillery strongpoints. Bet defending 8inch gun batteries would make German attacks abit more brutal.

Simply wrong as you generally are when it comes to the WtiE after turn 1.

WitE is not a book or a movie its a game and when one side screws up the other changes history and you can throw out your historical stats they mean NOTHING, zip zero other then your really starting to look like a big crybaby.

If you look at the AAR with and open mind you can see I was grinding forward to slowly,
BUT Huw saw he was screwed in center and started pulling troops from north.

So he made to mistakes

1. way to much in the north
2. did not see me move troops to center in time

Your whining about history has ZIP to do with our game because of player mistake.

Thanks for the game Huw you are not a cry baby and saw and learnt from your mistakes

You will surely hand the next person their German head on a platter.

[chaos45]

Ahh Pelton I know when I bring out things that are left out on the Soviet side its all im a cry baby. However read up on history the Russian navy and especially heavy fire support from its ships was a factor in why leningrad held. The Germans didnt just sit around doing nothing for 3 years at leningrad.

An if you noticed I said the Germans should be allowed a hold at all costs type option as well, as several cities in Germany/Prussia were bloody meatgrinder fights as well that the games combat will simply completely fail to model at current.

Best would be allow each player a set amount of units per game or per year that they can place and give it a different combat table or some such. Thoughts to improve the game and make it more realistic is never a bad thing IMO....

[Bob12]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

IDK again I see issues with the combat system especially allowing AGN with less assets to get same results against a very committed Soviet defense- just spun myself up on the history of the leningrad operations some this afternoon....AGN lost all offensive capability when its armor got pulled historically and it was requiring the use of all 7 panzer/motorized divisions to make the progress it did.

So in turn if German High command pulls half AGN armor support that should doom the leningrad campaign....as you can see in the game system it does not.

Heres hoping next patch makes more graphics soldiers and vehicles die in combat so we can get some realistic results.

Also as to WiTE2-----please have an orders setting for dedication of the defense or a unit for the soviets thats limits but makes a hex hold at all costs. Several board games give the Soviets a limited amount of NKVD political units that cant be rebuilt but in effect make a hex that are in hold at all costs- the result is it modifies combat tables to be bloodier for both sides and prevents retreats.....or better yet make a fortified unit that you can only have a limited amount of that does the same thing.

Soviets should have this type of unit available for situations such as leningrad/moscow/stalingrad were they just feed units into the meat grinder and retreat wasnt an option.

The Germans should prolly have a very limited amount of similar type units to represent the stands at Bresalua and Konigsburg.

Another issue for leningrad is there is no Soviet navy....beached Soviet naval artillery was a huge factor in why leningrad held.....the fortified zones dont have near the firepower of constant naval gunnery.....unless you update the leningrad fort zones to more than normal as special case with super heavy artillery and more manpower to make them worth keeping around when they germans get adjacent. they even dismounted some of cruiser guns and used them in land artillery strongpoints. Bet defending 8inch gun batteries would make German attacks abit more brutal.

I think I read somewhere naval support is abstracted by giving Lgrad it a high fort level then what would be warranted by its defensive works at the time.

Large scale city battles are by far what wite is worst at simulating, the CV's are strong enough but the cost in casualties to push the enemy out are far too low.

I can understand why the engine has problems, as city fighting is fundamentally different from fighting in natural terrain that occurs in 99% of the rest of the game, the constricted and 3D environment offers enormous advantages to the defender and almost always results in heavy losses for both sides in real life if an organized defense is given.

As for casualties... The more I look at it the more I think it is the biggest problem the game still has. The german army just isn't hollowed out from attrition like the real one (true to a lesser extent for the soviets), and has the same strength in men at the end of 41 as at the start.

It's not like the German player needs to use a less aggressive strategy to save the lives of their men either, the Germans can maintain ~3.5M strength irrespective of what they do. This isn't driven by player decisions but by the game engine and is backed up very consistently by the data, every AAR i've read so far has the germans with ~3.5M man army in june/july 42 regardless of what has happened.

[Bob12]

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ORIGINAL: chaos45

IDK again I see issues with the combat system especially allowing AGN with less assets to get same results against a very committed Soviet defense- just spun myself up on the history of the leningrad operations some this afternoon....AGN lost all offensive capability when its armor got pulled historically and it was requiring the use of all 7 panzer/motorized divisions to make the progress it did.

So in turn if German High command pulls half AGN armor support that should doom the leningrad campaign....as you can see in the game system it does not.

Heres hoping next patch makes more graphics soldiers and vehicles die in combat so we can get some realistic results.

Also as to WiTE2-----please have an orders setting for dedication of the defense or a unit for the soviets thats limits but makes a hex hold at all costs. Several board games give the Soviets a limited amount of NKVD political units that cant be rebuilt but in effect make a hex that are in hold at all costs- the result is it modifies combat tables to be bloodier for both sides and prevents retreats.....or better yet make a fortified unit that you can only have a limited amount of that does the same thing.

Soviets should have this type of unit available for situations such as leningrad/moscow/stalingrad were they just feed units into the meat grinder and retreat wasnt an option.

The Germans should prolly have a very limited amount of similar type units to represent the stands at Bresalua and Konigsburg.

Another issue for leningrad is there is no Soviet navy....beached Soviet naval artillery was a huge factor in why leningrad held.....the fortified zones dont have near the firepower of constant naval gunnery.....unless you update the leningrad fort zones to more than normal as special case with super heavy artillery and more manpower to make them worth keeping around when they germans get adjacent. they even dismounted some of cruiser guns and used them in land artillery strongpoints. Bet defending 8inch gun batteries would make German attacks abit more brutal.

Simply wrong as you generally are when it comes to the WtiE after turn 1.

WitE is not a book or a movie its a game and when one side screws up the other changes history and you can throw out your historical stats they mean NOTHING, zip zero other then your really starting to look like a big crybaby.

If you look at the AAR with and open mind you can see I was grinding forward to slowly,
BUT Huw saw he was screwed in center and started pulling troops from north.

So he made to mistakes

1. way to much in the north
2. did not see me move troops to center in time

Your whining about history has ZIP to do with our game because of player mistake.

Thanks for the game Huw you are not a cry baby and saw and learnt from your mistakes

You will surely hand the next person their German head on a platter.

As you say yourself, look at the data. Can you find even a single AAR where the German army has less than 3 million men by summer 42? I can't (3.5M seems to be the minimum). This is proof positive there is a problem.

This flaw is a sore point on an otherwise excellent game.

Of course the player should be able to change history, but not by being given a free pass from realistic constraints by allowing them to have an army 1 million men larger then in reality no matter what they do.

[MattFL]

It's a game and I agree that on the surface it can be viewed as an obvious flaw. BUT........if the Germans has less man in Summer '42 something else would need to change to balance it out because if the Germans have 2.5m men in 1942 the Russians are in Warsaw early '43.... You guys keep focusing on the east front in 1942, focus on the east front in 2015. Admittedly, it's not a perfect system, but it's the best one out there and in general is pro-soviet (as it should be). So I don't see the point of constantly bringing up troop numbers and casualty rates, focus instead on winning with what you, and the enemy, has right now and play the game.

[Bob12]

ORIGINAL: mattp

It's a game and I agree that on the surface it can be viewed as an obvious flaw. BUT........if the Germans has less man in Summer '42 something else would need to change to balance it out because if the Germans have 2.5m men in 1942 the Russians are in Warsaw early '43.... You guys keep focusing on the east front in 1942, focus on the east front in 2015. Admittedly, it's not a perfect system, but it's the best one out there and in general is pro-soviet (as it should be). So I don't see the point of constantly bringing up troop numbers and casualty rates, focus instead on winning with what you, and the enemy, has right now and play the game.

I overall agree strongly with the sentiment that the game is well worth playing regardless, but I do think that this issue does cause some significant problems, and that with appropriate adjustments it could be made more accurate, which in my opinion would be worth it considering the effort put into accuracy in the rest of the game.

Into specifics, I'm not sure balance would necessarily be kicked out too much, increased casualties would cause the soviets to be worn down a good deal more as well (especially in 1941 considering considering the high ratio of sov/ger casualties) . If the soviets did become too strong then I agree appropriate steps would have to be taken to redress the situation.

As for the 1943 onwards situation I'm not sure whether the game currently simulates the increased replacements that the Germans should be able to provide in 1943, as their manpower multiplier in the manual is the same as in 1942. As can be seen on the graph (Glantz figures I believe) after Stalingrad the Germans went total war and got their act together, managing to provide enough replacements to bring the Wehrmacht to slightly exceed it's initial Barbarossa strength by summer 43, although the infantry divisions were mostly still well understrength due to there being more of them than in 1941 (oddly this isn't reflected in the current wite 1943 scenario where the Germans only have 2.5M men).

If the above is modeled correctly, along with higher casualties (I believe the .05 rules should make a big difference late war for the soviets with their regular multi rifle corps attacks) it should make it much more difficult for the soviets to get to Berlin.