Defending Spain from the Allies

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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alexvand
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Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

So, it's 1942 and the Allies are about to try and go through Spain to get back onto the continent. This picture shows the situation and the available Axis units to add to the Spanish forces.

There are also transports at sea with another 4 allied corp about to land in portugal, but no corp that can invade.

How should the Axis go about defending this?



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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by AlbertN »

Embed picture in the post so we can see it!
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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

Let's try again.

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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

Let me also add that there are actually 8 more allied corp about to land in Portugal, none of which can invade.
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by AlbertN »

There is no real way to be honest, one more reason to seize Spain and Gibraltar earlier on in the war when Commonwealth is alone against the Axis.

I see you play with Unlimited Breakdown. That makes terribly easy for the CW to invade Portugal, because they can ship counteless corps in form of division via their SCS and land them with no issues, and reform them the turn after.

In this case I think you just need to have German troops at the ready to get into Spain. Alas if it was for me I'd put the rule that is in countless many other games, if Allies DoW Portugal, Spain jumps in the Axis immediately (as the virtually only reason the W.Allies would DoW Portugal is to go through Spain to get to Germany (and to France).

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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by joshuamnave »

ORIGINAL: Cohen
Alas if it was for me I'd put the rule that is in countless many other games, if Allies DoW Portugal, Spain jumps in the Axis immediately (as the virtually only reason the W.Allies would DoW Portugal is to go through Spain to get to Germany (and to France).


I've considered DoW'ing Portugal just for access to the Azores. Land based air there is very useful in defending convoys and the port can be nice for readying invasions or for convoy escort rotation. Isn't there an optional rule regarding Portugal allowing the US to use the Azores?
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Courtenay
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by Courtenay »

No one has answered the original question. How should Spain be defended?

We don't have enough information: what impulse is it, and what turn? In other words, how long a turn is this going to be? What actions have the US and the CW taken? How much Allied naval gunfire support is available in the Bay of Biscay and the Western Med? How many Axis units are available to be railed in? How much Axis air is available?
How much Allied air is available? I don't see much Allied air, and I see almost no Axis air.

I assume that it will be a long turn. I would be very tempted to let most of Spain go, and defy the Allies to batter their way through the Pyrenees. Spain won't surrender until both Bilbao and Barcelona are taken. Make the Allies fight through mountains, behind rivers to get to them. However, without knowing what forces are available, I am by no means certain that this is the best answer.
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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

Available Axis corp are what you see plus a few corp that can be railed in from anti-partisan duties or garrisoning the French coast. The French coast can be temporarily weakened since all the allied resources are unable to invade, or landing in Portugal. But there isn't much there to take, the axis are stretched pretty thin.

No Axis air available. It's all in Russia, or in the Med. (Maybe one long range night fighter could be re-based to Spain.) Right now the Allies are avoiding the Med as they just don't have the air cover to keep the Axis NAVs away.

Allied air in Spain consists of 2 short range fighters and 2 TAC. There are a couple of longe range fighters nearby that may be used in the Med, but they might also be available for Spain. There's one US ATR, but no PARAs. There's one STR in England, but that's it. The allied air force is pretty weak, or tied up trying to protect the convoys.

The Italian surface fleet is in the Western Med available for Shore Bombardment. (4 box at the moment and might stay at sea to stay available.)

The Allies have a large portion of the CW surface fleet in the Bay of Biscay available for Shore Bombardment since the Med is too dangerous for them at the moment.

It's Sep/Oct, the first impulses were entirely clear. The second pair of impulses has bad weather, but it looks like the allies might declare anyway.

One of the first questions is who should align Spain? The only corp on the border are German and the Italians don't have much to send, so it seems like Germany would the best choice.

After that, where do you sent the Spanish up?
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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

Left out that the Allied first impulses were Naval to move all their stuff around and protect the convoys, which is what they do almost every turn.
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by brian brian »

This is a bad move for the Allies in general, it seems to me. Spain should defend somewhat forward, stacked in mountain hexes, but only where they can't be outflanked. The three mountain ranges are mutually supporting in that regard. Allied units afloat won't reach the front all that quick, and they can probably only make one good attack against a mountain stack with what they have on the Portugal border and such a deficit of air. The Allies might be looking at as few as one more clear impulse of activity as bad weather creates more bad weather and hastens the end of the turn. If the weather goes against the Allies, a forward defense pays off, and helps keep Spanish resources on the rails to the newly enlarged industrial base of the Axis. The Axis have little choice but to rail in whatever they can from all over the map, so they might as well start out defending forward, the terrain is just as good there, and the reinforcing railhead locations need to be screened. So I would pick the hex that says Morena, the one that says Guadarrama, and the rail junction SW of Santander (weakest of the 3, in rain already, though needs Franco supplying it a hex to the east). The Spanish would also have the option of retreating one hex without giving up much in such a scenario.

Spain is the wrong theater for Rommel and additional Panzers though, I would send him back to Russia or in reserve in northern France if the Allies have many AMPHs (sounds like they don't)...but the Axis need their rail moves to reinforce Spain, so he might as well slog through the mountains for a few turns anyway.

I might be tempted to put a raider type unit in Seville also, to temporarily divert Allied units there.

In J/F 43, the Axis forces could consider a bear hug all the Allied forces in reach and hope for a good partisan roll, unless the Allied rear areas are full of unused aircraft.

Whichever Axis Major Power aligns Spain should build out their INF and MIL pools so the Spanish can be replaced, as Bilbao and Barcelona will hold out for a long time, particularly Barcelona. The Allies just freed up Italian freedom of action and production for quite some time to come and the Allies won't be able to easily get Shore Bombardment on the hex. The Axis might also be able to shift NAV resources to contest the Bay of Biscay, though this is more difficult right where new British production and American reinforcements appear.

The Axis should send in all the MTN troops they can muster, even Antonescu + the Rumanian MTN. They should also send the Allies a thank-you cake at Christmas.

I've always thought it a pity that the Spanish get not one Convoy Point they could use to cause mayhem via using the Canaries as a base for an impulse or into a second turn with a little luck. The TRS can accomplish that however, hmm....

I also would probably be unable to resist placing a unit in Tangiers to be immediately reinforced via TRS delivery, just to hold a couple Allied corps in Gibraltar and put a supplied Axis raider base (+NAV perhaps?) on the African convoy routes and push back on the Allies over the winter, depending on remaining Axis naval assets, now increased by the Spanish fleet. This would be a chance for the Axis navies to take a little initiative for themselves. If the Italian NAV can secure the West Med, in Nov/Dec a couple Italian BBs could escort a Spanish supply run to the Canaries, from whence a couple Spanish cruisers set sail immediately... sounds like the U-Boats are in play ... Japan approves of this scenario.


The Allies might wish they have a Free French Dakar already garrisoned as well...particularly on the rare chance it is the current capital of Free France. Maybe it could be worth using up the Blue Division this way, maybe in conjunction with some shenanigans in those sea areas via Tangier (TRS moves out, re-org Blue Division on a land impulse if not found by the Royal Navy). If the Axis reach Dakar they could have a little fun building a TERRitorial unit ... but probably a unit in Spanish Sahara just results in one less Allied unit in Spain and the Saharan unit could wander towards Morocco instead.
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by ACMW »

Although you are a little feistier than am I, I pretty much agree with your analysis. Without seeing the board it is a bit difficult to be sure, but it sounds as if the WAllies are undercooked for Spain, in which case a measured forward deployment seems just the ticket. If not, then Courtney's Pyrenees defence is required.

So, if undercooked, I, as the Axis, would be happy as a pig in shit. If not undercooked, it could be pretty unpleasant for me, particularly if and as the WAllies build air domination in the area. In this case, though, I'm still happy. Maybe happier. Because with air dominance and adequate lift there is a deal more mischief that they could cause than they can by fiddling around in Iberia. Unless they propose to batter their way through the Pyrenees, the main benefits of Spain for the WAllies are: forward airbases for projection into the W Med and more ports / coastal hexes for units earmarked for invasions into SFrance / Sardinia / Italy. Fine. But these can be gained much more easily in North Africa ... maybe more or less en passant...because of the fear of prison camp North Africa for the Wehrmacht. This is much less of a fear in Spain as Axis are not so dependent on SLOCs. That said ...

One slight word of caution, though. With adequate lift, the WAllies are extremely flexible. There is some risk, some time in the future, of landings behind the Axis defences (Anvil and/or Overlord). This either needs to be insured against or Axis commitments to Spain need to be moderated.

Cheers

Adrian

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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

The Allies are very short of lift. They have only 1 CW Amph and 1 US Amph on the map at all. That's why they went into Portugal and into Spain. It was the only way to get their rather substantial ground forces into action at all. We'll see how well it goes.

I'll go with the forward defense and update you as it goes.
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

So here it is one turn later. The Spanish played a forward defense. The allies got a few lucky ground strikes in and flipped a lot of the spanish defenders. Then the spanish risked re-establishing supply lines while the Allies tried to ooze around. Which is why the Spanish are so scattered. But the turn ended before the allies cut supply and launched no attaches. Now the Axis get to move first in really bad weather, which means there's a chance to keep the Spanish forces alive a little longer.

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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by brian brian »

note my idea of ever getting supply to the Canaries couldn't happen as you can only trace supply overseas once. but Tangier can be supplied via West Med and I would (would have?) definitely put that into play. looks like the Allies have already moved the African convoy route out of Cape St Vincent, but that means they have also probably already moved it to where they can't as easily use aircraft to escort the convoys. A pity the Axis seemed to pass on this chance to pressure the Allies in additional areas. Fighting in the Med is all about air assets and air bases; saving the Spanish fleet for that struggle accomplishes far less than using it to raid the mid-Atlantic. But then surface fleets are just kind of superfluous when the Allies have a bottomless pile of Light Cruisers to send everywhere.

The Allies are operating on exterior lines in a major way and if I got to pick where to fight the bulk of the Allied land forces in the spring of 1943, I would pick in an Axis allied Spain for sure.

These Allies will gain some additional access to the West Med by the spring but will not see the Garonde valley in France until late summer 1943 and Italy might survive into 1944. The Allies should have North Africa in hand after the collapse of Vichy though; even Libya must be conquered with Australians fighting in Spain. Access to airbases on the Italian Coast would have been far more useful.
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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

The challenge I always find with sending out surface raiders is where do you get the Naval moves to send out the surface units? If I could have aligned Spain with Italy that might be less of a problem, but there just weren't enough Italian land units to reinforce Spain at all. Italy has to defend Sardinia and it's own coast, as the Allies are attempting to get into position there.

It's a struggle to get the really large German sub fleet out regularly as it is, let alone getting the Spanish out too. I actually suspect the Spanish ships will never leave port, the Germans are just too busy with land moves. The occasional combined will get the subs out and perhaps the occasional raid by the German surface raiders.
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by brian brian »

Yep. Italy has a better situation with Action Limits, even if you can't send Italians to Spain.

Thanks for the vicarious game play though.

Out of curiosity, at the time, who aligned Portugal? I would pick Japan for that, unless maybe it was real early and the South Africans were set up to take their colonies quickly.
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by Centuur »

If there aren't any Allied units in Dakar, I would always put the Spanish division in that area. It is fast and can run havoc in that area if it isn't contained fast enough. The same type of trick can be used by placing the CAV in Spanish controlled Rio Muni, if the Free French capital is near and can be taken by it. Nothing better than another conquest of French (again halving the Free French force pools). And the road to Belgian Kongo is near too. A 2-5 in late war in Spain can't do a lot there...

Offense is often the best defense...

Tangier is another nice place. Put a Spanish unit in there and see if you can get an Italian naval presence in that port. It ties up expensive Allied troops to take that port.
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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

Oh, my brain hurts with new ideas about how to play! Japan aligning Portugal, Spanish divs and corp running amok. I have so much to learn!

Too bad I did none of the above! I'm far too defensive minded.
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alexvand
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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by alexvand »

So here's the situation a turn later. Bad weather continues to pay off for the Axis. So far not one Spanish unit has been destroyed. If the Allies continue with taking a naval in their first impulse like they have almost all game then most of the Spanish will escape from their forward positions and meet up with the arriving German units to create a fairly strong defense in the middle of Spain.

For the Allies the only positive part is that this has drawn some German units away from Russia. All the German MNT have arrived. (Although Lenningrad still fell without their winter bonus help.)

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RE: Defending Spain from the Allies

Post by WIF_Killzone »

Don't think attacking Spain has value proposition as its so defensible, look at all the mountains and the choke point between Bayonne and Barcelona including non passible hex sides, the Alias are going to be bled white for a long long time.
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