I am done

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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Neilster
Posts: 2880
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: I am done

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: Shotgun

I can't personally see a full blown AI working,however I'm happy to be proved wrong and would dearly love to see a full AI incorporated into MWIF. I would also settle for a less complete AI that could compliment the Solo player, by this I mean:

* Automate the setup of Units at the start of the game i.e. you could choose countries where the AI would decide the setup at the start of the scenario. Would speed things up and provide some variety.

* AI could play attacked minors i.e. Poland, Holland, Belgium, Denmmark, Portugal etc... and to the benefit of the minor and not the aligned major power. Never happy with the concept of players flying the Polish airforce straight out of the country at the first opportunity, rather than fighting to preserve they freedom to the bitter end.

* I'm sure it should be reasonably straightforward to add AI for China possibly Russia,

* And one for less AI, an option to turn off the automated routing of the resources so that you can manually setup the convoy routes.
Most of this was discussed years ago and Steve decided he had enough on his plate getting a competent AI working. So basically, if you're playing one side, you're in control of everything. Same for if you're playing a major power.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
Extraneous
Posts: 1810
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 am

RE: I am done

Post by Extraneous »

ORIGINAL: pzgndr


I want an AI as challenging or better than the AI that I scripted myself for my Advanced Third Reich mod using Strategic Command 2 Global Conflict. At this point I'm wondering if Steve will get Fascist Tide with AI working first, or if I will be able to update my mod for SC3 first.

As for cheating, there are difficulty levels and other bonuses needed to compensate for AI weaknesses. No AI, or human opponent for that matter, is perfect. I would characterize the Strategic Command series AI as challenging. It is possible to have a challenging AI, which really bothers some folks but they'll get over it. I am optimistic that Steve will eventually implement a challenging AI computer opponent for MWifF, despite the naysayers. We shall see.


I suggested a scripted AI years ago but the idea was declined.

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
brian brian
Posts: 3191
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:39 pm

RE: I am done

Post by brian brian »

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

If you give the Soviet Union an accurate OOB (10,000s of AFV) and any standard of command and control which a human player would expect, then they become unbeatable. Then you have to fudge and twist the rules to keep some balance. No human player would be prepared to suffer the historical level of command and control that the Soviets had in the early years, but an AI will.

As for sensible behaviour, the historical record is full of not so sensible strategies used by, or forced on, actual commanders. The AI will simulate this, as how sensible were the Allies in 1940, the Axis at Stalingrad and many more.

In a gaming world of 20/20 hindsight, I am happy to have some uncertainty thrown in, however it comes, whether cheats, difficulty levels, etc., but an AI can be programmed to provide those WTF moments that real warfare has in abundance. [:)]


This is a great post, but it reveals why we all play World in Flames. The Allies held a huge numerical and industrial advantage, yet there are ways the Axis could have won the war. (Though the most likely one would have been if Nazi ideology wasn't so extreme). There was another good recent post on here somewhere about Russian production vs German production and how the Russians probably pulled ahead already at the end of 1941, even in all the chaos of massive defeats at the front. (Where is that post? It might have been on the Yahoo mailing list discussing upcoming changes to Production Multiples though, sorry)

So to simulate the war, you can't just say Germany attacks Russia with 2 million men but he Russians have 3 million men so the Russians win. Whether with paper and cardboard or pixels and mouse, subjectivity has to be involved to rate how much each of those men are worth. The German was worth more than the Russian, in large part due to Stalin's purge in the 1930s. I think Stalin and Hitler, each as the head of a top-down Dictator system, hampered their countries' war effort quite significantly (well modeled in the game), but Hitler didn't mess up his army's tactical capabilities the way the Communists did to theirs.

I think I settled on World in Flames because it does such a good job of that subjective rating of each country's military affairs. For the Russians, their units continue to improve - IF the player is smart enough to manage their military output well.

The first AI I ever played was a simulation of the first year of Barbarossa. The AI was given the cheat of permanently increasing combat factors. The AI units just always got stronger and stronger. The fun wore off playing it almost instantly. I seriously doubt Steve has any plans to put in any cheat at all in the AI he will write.
Rosseau
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:20 am

RE: I am done

Post by Rosseau »

New to WiF, but 30 years gaming. It's the best East Front land warfare game I've ever encountered. Not as crazy about the naval stuff; just blow through some of that to get to the land game [;)]
Braig
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:57 am

RE: I am done

Post by Braig »

Yes, gaming is best played against other human opponents! That being said, I don't have the time or inclination to schedule the amount of time that this game requires anymore. I've played it since the 80's and you can find my name in the credits. I'n very aware of how long a complete game takes. This is the reason I want to see the AI. Steve's whole purpose of taking on this project was developing a competent AI for WiF I like his direction and ideas on how to make it work. I'm excited to see how it works out. As for now, I've put the game away until an AI is released.
bo
Posts: 4175
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:52 pm

RE: I am done

Post by bo »

ORIGINAL: Braig

Yes, gaming is best played against other human opponents! That being said, I don't have the time or inclination to schedule the amount of time that this game requires anymore. I've played it since the 80's and you can find my name in the credits. I'n very aware of how long a complete game takes. This is the reason I want to see the AI. Steve's whole purpose of taking on this project was developing a competent AI for WiF I like his direction and ideas on how to make it work. I'm excited to see how it works out. As for now, I've put the game away until an AI is released.

Hi Braig, could not agree more with your post, some posters here think when you insist on an AI you do not want to play humans and that is just not correct. I would like to play humans but it has to be a mutual time agreeable by two or more players and I see that as somewhat difficult with a lot of players.

The AI gives you the freedom to practice tactics or just enjoy the game without time restrictions. A good AI would of course be enjoyable to most players but with the complexity of this game I would settle for any kind of an AI for now [:(]

Bo
majordefeat
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2014 12:21 pm

RE: I am done

Post by majordefeat »

If WiF the computer game was an infantry unit it would be an italian militia.
Rosseau
Posts: 2931
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 2:20 am

RE: I am done

Post by Rosseau »

There is the issue of Steve's health (hope he's okay) and not making any money on the game that could inhibit the development of an AI. Not sure if Steve can program it, or they'd have to get an AI programmer.

Playing Lebensraum as Axis (solitare) up to March/April 1943 so far. Forgot about the transports in the production pool, so the U.S. has been effectively castrated. But it's really been fun.

Honestly, I go back to WitE ($80) and it bores me to tears. Looking in the database is more fun than playing the game. I hope WitW is better.
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Neilster
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:52 pm
Location: Devonport, Tasmania, Australia

RE: I am done

Post by Neilster »

ORIGINAL: rosseau

There is the issue of Steve's health (hope he's okay) and not making any money on the game that could inhibit the development of an AI. Not sure if Steve can program it, or they'd have to get an AI programmer.

Playing Lebensraum as Axis (solitare) up to March/April 1943 so far. Forgot about the transports in the production pool, so the U.S. has been effectively castrated. But it's really been fun.

Honestly, I go back to WitE ($80) and it bores me to tears. Looking in the database is more fun than playing the game. I hope WitW is better.
I'm pretty sure Steve has been making money on the game since it's been released and he's an AI programmer from way back.

Cheers, Neilster
Cheers, Neilster
Extraneous
Posts: 1810
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:58 am

RE: I am done

Post by Extraneous »

ORIGINAL: Neilster

ORIGINAL: rosseau

There is the issue of Steve's health (hope he's okay) and not making any money on the game that could inhibit the development of an AI. Not sure if Steve can program it, or they'd have to get an AI programmer.

Playing Lebensraum as Axis (solitare) up to March/April 1943 so far. Forgot about the transports in the production pool, so the U.S. has been effectively castrated. But it's really been fun.

Honestly, I go back to WitE ($80) and it bores me to tears. Looking in the database is more fun than playing the game. I hope WitW is better.
I'm pretty sure Steve has been making money on the game since it's been released and he's an AI programmer from way back.

Cheers, Neilster


What happened to Peter?
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
September 1, 2013 Status Report for Matrix Games’ MWIF Forum

Artificial Intelligence (AI)

Nothing substantially new. Peter S. has been working on the strategic plans for Italy and I added a comment or three from time to time.

University of Science Music and Culture (USMC) class of 71 and 72 ~ Extraneous (AKA Mziln)
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