How to win at WitE
Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21
How to win at WitE
...and/or what noobs tend to neglect, such as checking HQ DtHQ or putting armor in Reserve behind the lines, etc. Maybe 3-5 of your best observations. A lot has changed since I bought the game on release day [:(]
RE: How to win at WitE
1. pocket units do not be a plow truck as GHC.
2. put all your best infantry divisions in 1 army
3. move as many con units into AGS,AGC and AGN as soon as possible, they have a web done long before mud in north and south.
4. transfer all SU's to Germany before blizzard.
5. farm morale with infantry units
6. Elite panzer units leave at the front, put your best infantry under cover before your tanks. You can easly get all the panzer morale back during spring snow turns-not so easy with infantry
2. put all your best infantry divisions in 1 army
3. move as many con units into AGS,AGC and AGN as soon as possible, they have a web done long before mud in north and south.
4. transfer all SU's to Germany before blizzard.
5. farm morale with infantry units
6. Elite panzer units leave at the front, put your best infantry under cover before your tanks. You can easly get all the panzer morale back during spring snow turns-not so easy with infantry
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: How to win at WitE
Thank you. I am actually playing Courland Pocket as Axis, and the Soviet AI really burns a corridor West above Telsiai, even on Normal. So still figuring out the basics of attack and defense.
RE: How to win at WitE
Practice, practice tactical use of Infan and Pz units. Get a feel for what strength of attack is needed for each attack. Example, level 2 fort behind a river hex in a swamp , it's going to be hard to budge. Hasty, and more hasty attacks with Pz. Don't be afaraid of helds. Stay away from messing with air units for the first couple of months. They're not critical, but can give your attacks a little umpfh.
WITE is a good addiction with no cure.
RE: How to win at WitE
Thanks, Rosseau, for the question and KUDOS, Pelton & Hitman, for useful responses. Practice vs. AI is very useful, but can't match the best of P2P games, so looking at some good AAR's is essential.
Find your preferred force structure at every level and have a plan to get there.
Try the game vs. AI using fixed weather, then learn to deal with variable weather, that's a biggie.
If your play objective is to win P2P games, or, historical simulation, you'll most likely work out different approaches.
Find your preferred force structure at every level and have a plan to get there.
Try the game vs. AI using fixed weather, then learn to deal with variable weather, that's a biggie.
If your play objective is to win P2P games, or, historical simulation, you'll most likely work out different approaches.
RE: How to win at WitE
Thanks gentlemen. In Courland as German, I eliminated "bomb cities" and increased interdiction to stem the tide a bit.
What are the trade-offs between hasty and delib?
I understand that the strategic complexity of the game is greatly magnified when you go from a "small" scenario to managing the entire war. The land war in World in Flames is simple compared to WitE (imo). Thanks!
What are the trade-offs between hasty and delib?
I understand that the strategic complexity of the game is greatly magnified when you go from a "small" scenario to managing the entire war. The land war in World in Flames is simple compared to WitE (imo). Thanks!
RE: How to win at WitE
ORIGINAL: rosseau
What are the trade-offs between hasty and delib?
The difference is primarily one of speed versus force. In a hasty attack, even a motorized unit only spends 3mps and non motor only 2. For Deliberate I think it's 16 for motorized and only 6 for non-motorized. Hasty attacks lose 50% of CV value of attacking units. So really hasty attacks are best used to brush weak opposition out of the way to keep the motorized units rolling. Deliberate attacks are used to bring maximum concentration of force. Hasty attacks can only originate from a single hex while delib can be from multiple hexes. In Grand campaign, the Germans are using hasty attacks to push through weak blocking units while using deliberate attacks to take down fortified lines and such.
RE: How to win at WitE
Thanks for explaining it so well. Hasty seems a "blitzkrieg" or breakthough attack method.
It will not be much use for the Germans in Courland. A 50% penalty and one-hex attack limit is rough. Will units in reserve and air support have a chance to join a Hasty attack? I assume certainly not for the former, at least.
I know I should just "look it all up" in the rules, so appreciate everyone's patience.
It will not be much use for the Germans in Courland. A 50% penalty and one-hex attack limit is rough. Will units in reserve and air support have a chance to join a Hasty attack? I assume certainly not for the former, at least.
I know I should just "look it all up" in the rules, so appreciate everyone's patience.
RE: How to win at WitE
I believe you do get air support with hasty attacks, but no reserves.
RE: How to win at WitE
ORIGINAL: jwolf
I believe you do get air support with hasty attacks, but no reserves.
you can get reserve activations, German players in 1941 may not see this due to the layout of the battlefield, ie your Pzrs are well ahead and are rarely set to reserve at the time you are crashing through masses of 1cv rifle divisions.
Late game with the Soviets I've had a lot of reserve activation for hasty attacks. Think they are less likely to happen than with a deliberate attack.
RE: How to win at WitE
Here's a dumb question: In the combat resolution box, Germans have 16k men in defense and CV of 138. Soviets have 63k and CV of 56?
The Germans held of course. But why do they get such a large CV with much less men? Does terrain, leadership or other factors that greatly influence CV?
Thanks again for the help.
The Germans held of course. But why do they get such a large CV with much less men? Does terrain, leadership or other factors that greatly influence CV?
Thanks again for the help.
RE: How to win at WitE
Exactly - terrain, weather, fortifications, unit experience, morale and equipment, as well as leader skills and positioning of the HQs, all influence CV.
RE: How to win at WitE
Morvael is the man for all questions. He is a tremendous source for info.
The adjusted offensive and defensive values are very complicated, as Morvael stated above, but range of values.. possible lowest to highest values are simply staggering. And since there are more modifiers that are involved with defense, forts, terrain, etc. the range of adjusted values are even more extreme !!! A rough example would be a weak Russian division in a level 2 fort in a a swamp hex behind a river can have a mod val as low as 20 or as high as +250. Similarly, one in a clear hex, low value of 3-4 or a high value of +50. Now these are really rough estimates.
I'm not an elite player, but many of the best fail to understand that since there is such a huge range of values, offense and defense, that a moderate increase in either value will have little impact on the % of holds versus retreats + routs + shattered. The reason I worded this way is that the number of casualties, the reduction in forts, the result of retreat, rout, or shatter can be significantly changed by moderate increases or decreases in offense/defense values, but the % of outright combat "success" (held versus the others) is changed little.
Let me give you an example. Lets say an attack of 3 German divisions on a single Soviet division in level 1 fort in lightly wooded terrain has a 50/50 chance of success. The average offense value of lets say 275, the average defensive value of 150. However the range of the offense value 1000 to 50 and defense value 500 to 25 is so great that a 20% increase in the attack value by "something" you do, change a leader, add air power, add another division, assign a new SU, will change the result by less than 1 %. And that's with a theoretical 50/50 attack. In a 80/20 theoretical attack a 20 % increase in offense value will have an even less impact.
So what am I saying ??? With combat results you are going to the casinos. Luck plays a huge, huge role. The best players arrange their attacks/defense to put the odds as much as possible in their favor, but the results of many well planned attacks are a pure roll of the die, no matter what you do.
The adjusted offensive and defensive values are very complicated, as Morvael stated above, but range of values.. possible lowest to highest values are simply staggering. And since there are more modifiers that are involved with defense, forts, terrain, etc. the range of adjusted values are even more extreme !!! A rough example would be a weak Russian division in a level 2 fort in a a swamp hex behind a river can have a mod val as low as 20 or as high as +250. Similarly, one in a clear hex, low value of 3-4 or a high value of +50. Now these are really rough estimates.
I'm not an elite player, but many of the best fail to understand that since there is such a huge range of values, offense and defense, that a moderate increase in either value will have little impact on the % of holds versus retreats + routs + shattered. The reason I worded this way is that the number of casualties, the reduction in forts, the result of retreat, rout, or shatter can be significantly changed by moderate increases or decreases in offense/defense values, but the % of outright combat "success" (held versus the others) is changed little.
Let me give you an example. Lets say an attack of 3 German divisions on a single Soviet division in level 1 fort in lightly wooded terrain has a 50/50 chance of success. The average offense value of lets say 275, the average defensive value of 150. However the range of the offense value 1000 to 50 and defense value 500 to 25 is so great that a 20% increase in the attack value by "something" you do, change a leader, add air power, add another division, assign a new SU, will change the result by less than 1 %. And that's with a theoretical 50/50 attack. In a 80/20 theoretical attack a 20 % increase in offense value will have an even less impact.
So what am I saying ??? With combat results you are going to the casinos. Luck plays a huge, huge role. The best players arrange their attacks/defense to put the odds as much as possible in their favor, but the results of many well planned attacks are a pure roll of the die, no matter what you do.
WITE is a good addiction with no cure.
RE: How to win at WitE
Here's a dumb question: In the combat resolution box, Germans have 16k men in defense and CV of 138. Soviets have 63k and CV of 56? The Germans held of course. But why do they get such a large CV with much less men? Does terrain, leadership or other factors that greatly influence CV? Thanks again for the help.
One suggestion that you may want to consider is run through the GC with the ALT CV. While I'm no expert on it, my understanding is that it basically puts a lot of the CV values that are used in combat directly onto the counter (more to it than this of course!). Doing this you can easily see how making changes of leadership, how having too many units assigned to a leader, terrain, fortifications, etc.. all directly influence CV. With this experience you are better able to estimate strength in a regular game. You don't get such huge mods during combat though so you really need to attack with what odds you hope to achieve (i.e. if you're looking for 2-1 make sure you attack with double the on map CV).
Just a thought..
RE: How to win at WitE
Attack with best odds you can get, use air when you can, and have as many support units assigned as available. Attacking CV ratio better than 2:1 helps. Don't attack, maneuver, when CVs aren't there for you. With experience, you'll get the feel for what works. In defense, have as much reserves as possible. And, von Manstein or an elite player I'm not. Play to lower expectations w/o perfect knowledge. Humility works well. (joke)
RE: How to win at WitE
Thank you all. I will digest this. However, based on HITMAN's response, I am quite surprised how much of a role "luck" plays in a Grigsby game.
And yet... rolling a "1" in World in Flames can be even more devastating, so I can't complain about that design decision. But "historically," I believe luck was much less of a factor than it appears to be in both these games. Just my uneducated opinion.
And yet... rolling a "1" in World in Flames can be even more devastating, so I can't complain about that design decision. But "historically," I believe luck was much less of a factor than it appears to be in both these games. Just my uneducated opinion.
RE: How to win at WitE
mattp an rrbill are correct in their observations, but I can't stress enough the incredible range of "normal" modified combat strengths, particularly defensive. This time a real example : attacking Riga, turn one, with the 1st and 6th Pz div's. The modified defensive value of the city I've seen as low as 80 and as high as 800 !!! The CV strength on the Pz units mean zippo, in fact. You're $$ are on the roulette wheel, my friend.
I did exaggerate a little in my example above . A 20% increase in offensive strength can have up to a 4-5 % better attack outcome, but my point stands; the benefit is minimal.
I did exaggerate a little in my example above . A 20% increase in offensive strength can have up to a 4-5 % better attack outcome, but my point stands; the benefit is minimal.
WITE is a good addiction with no cure.
RE: How to win at WitE
I realise most of this discussion is from the axis PoV, but for the Soviets I find its relatively easy to estimate the final result.
If I have between 1/1.4:1 on the shown cv odds I'm pretty confident I'll win about 80% of the time, if its <1 I reckon I'll lose about 60% of the time. Much below .8:1 is beyond redemption, much over 1.5:1 and its a pretty sure win (ignoring reserve reactions here).
If I'm in the border lands, I'll do a pre-attack ground attack (the disrupted elements don't show but can badly weaken the enemy) and from mid-game onwards add in on map artillery units.
Now I have seen low odds attack succeed (I may do these to burn off German reserves or if I get caught out by poor recon) and good odds fail, but not that often.
Key to my logic is that mass matters, in effect a Soviet attack involves lots of (weak) elements firing.
I'd suggest that some of the apparently wider range for the Germans in the early war is down to poor recon, remember what you see on map is not always correct, especially if you are just coming into contact?
If I have between 1/1.4:1 on the shown cv odds I'm pretty confident I'll win about 80% of the time, if its <1 I reckon I'll lose about 60% of the time. Much below .8:1 is beyond redemption, much over 1.5:1 and its a pretty sure win (ignoring reserve reactions here).
If I'm in the border lands, I'll do a pre-attack ground attack (the disrupted elements don't show but can badly weaken the enemy) and from mid-game onwards add in on map artillery units.
Now I have seen low odds attack succeed (I may do these to burn off German reserves or if I get caught out by poor recon) and good odds fail, but not that often.
Key to my logic is that mass matters, in effect a Soviet attack involves lots of (weak) elements firing.
I'd suggest that some of the apparently wider range for the Germans in the early war is down to poor recon, remember what you see on map is not always correct, especially if you are just coming into contact?
RE: How to win at WitE
The combat looks random when you don't put enough power behind your attack. The entire art of playing boils down to get a feel how much strength is enough, so you don't use up too mamy units in a single battle, but enough to be sure of the final result not to waste them. This includes maximizing gains from sometimes invisible factors (command penalties, dense terrain, support units, air, real CV). You have to expend as little MP as possible and use a little units as possible yet be quite sure your attack will win with ~80% chance (usually reserves can spoil otherwise fine attacks, but sometimes they can be blocked).
RE: How to win at WitE
So a player's skill can mitigate some of the "luck" factor. That is historical!