Betty's
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
Betty's
You guys have a good game here. I'm trying to learn playing the Guadalcanal scenario. I've been learning just playing through so far with the help on a few videos, manual, and this forum. I am stuck with a question about Betty bombers. What are they good for? For getting killed is all that I can figure. I have tried bombs and torpedoes, but they rarely hit anything and always get slaughtered. That is with or with out fighter support. I am talking naval attack missions.
What altitude and how do I use these expensive paper airplanes???????????
What altitude and how do I use these expensive paper airplanes???????????
RE: Betty's
Hi, RCH, If you played the other side, which I have done so far, you'd probably have a different opinion of them...As I haven't missioned them I can only refer toORIGINAL: RCH
You guys have a good game here. I'm trying to learn playing the Guadalcanal scenario. I've been learning just playing through so far with the help on a few videos, manual, and this forum. I am stuck with a question about Betty bombers. What are they good for? For getting killed is all that I can figure. I have tried bombs and torpedoes, but they rarely hit anything and always get slaughtered. That is with or with out fighter support. I am talking naval attack missions.
What altitude and how do I use these expensive paper airplanes???????????
what the OP reports say about their behaviour. Using torpedoes they usually attack at 200 feet. Not sure how the game use altitudes, but even if you set them at,
say, 5.000 feet, one should think that they descended to torpedo launch altitude when attacking. I don't know if they do.
Good luck!
Fred
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RE: Betty's
Well they die easy, that's for sure. What they've got is long range & torpedo armament, serious ship-killer ability. The airgroups should be manned w/ high-skill NavT pilots, located at bases w/ torpedo supply, co-located w/ high-skill NavS groups.
They can bring the hurt to ships that lack air-cover, but you've got to provide max Fighter Escorts when they face enemy fighters. The Bettys should be set to their escorts' range, the escorts should be set to the same altitude as the Bettys.
For altitude, as torpedo-bombers they arrive at their target at their assigned alt (taking AA fire), then automatically drop down to a 200' alt for their attack run (where they take add'l point-defense AA fire). There's nothing you can do about the latter, but for the former, you can develop some knowlege about your targets - is it real early in the war, when most Allied ships have awful AA armament? Or late-war, when they'll all have 40mm buzz-saw AA?
W/ Escorts, set the alt to the best manuever alt for your escorts. Stay above 6k' to avoid 40mm Bofors fire, above 15k' to avoid 3"/50 AA.
But no-one does anything more than chance damage against ships when level-bombing from high alt. Bettys can rule as torp-bombers, if properly escorted by fighters that overwhelm the enemy CAP, and have the skilled pilots that can hit the target. Otherwise, expect heavy losses.
They can bring the hurt to ships that lack air-cover, but you've got to provide max Fighter Escorts when they face enemy fighters. The Bettys should be set to their escorts' range, the escorts should be set to the same altitude as the Bettys.
For altitude, as torpedo-bombers they arrive at their target at their assigned alt (taking AA fire), then automatically drop down to a 200' alt for their attack run (where they take add'l point-defense AA fire). There's nothing you can do about the latter, but for the former, you can develop some knowlege about your targets - is it real early in the war, when most Allied ships have awful AA armament? Or late-war, when they'll all have 40mm buzz-saw AA?
W/ Escorts, set the alt to the best manuever alt for your escorts. Stay above 6k' to avoid 40mm Bofors fire, above 15k' to avoid 3"/50 AA.
But no-one does anything more than chance damage against ships when level-bombing from high alt. Bettys can rule as torp-bombers, if properly escorted by fighters that overwhelm the enemy CAP, and have the skilled pilots that can hit the target. Otherwise, expect heavy losses.
RE: Betty's
RCH, here is a discussion you may find helpful
tm.asp?m=3595346&mpage=1&key=
tm.asp?m=3595346&mpage=1&key=
RE: Betty's
Greetings Rich. I think you'll find that Beattys can be VERY deadly in the right hands and escorted as indicated above. Here is a very good example of how skill level of pilots comes into play. If your pilots have skill levels of 70-80 in torpedo attacks, AND the attack group is escorted by skilled Zero pilots (if you use the extended range with drop takes those zeros can go a LONG way) the attack can be very deadly to any allied target. Of course this diminishes as the war moves on due to better Allied air defense, but it can still be effective. In regards to altitude, come in high above the Allied AA and that will minimize losses on the arrival, but as indicated above, the AC drops down to 200 ft for the final run in which can result in lots of downed Bettys (here defensive pilot skills come into play, but not a lot). As indicated, put your escorts at the SAME altitude as the Bettys and in fact they will fly at 2000 feet above the Bettys as escort top cover so to speak. Welcome aboard to a great game. Hal
- HansBolter
- Posts: 7191
- Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:30 pm
- Location: United States
RE: Betty's
ORIGINAL: RCH
You guys have a good game here. I'm trying to learn playing the Guadalcanal scenario. I've been learning just playing through so far with the help on a few videos, manual, and this forum. I am stuck with a question about Betty bombers. What are they good for? For getting killed is all that I can figure. I have tried bombs and torpedoes, but they rarely hit anything and always get slaughtered. That is with or with out fighter support. I am talking naval attack missions.
What altitude and how do I use these expensive paper airplanes???????????
Switch sides and your perspective on them will change considerably.
They can find lone ships on the other side of the planet and put a fish in them 99.9% of the time.
36 of them can arrive unescorted and after shooting down 35 of them the lone survivor will penetrate your CAP and put a fish in your CV every time.
If a lone betty gets through it is guaranteed not to miss.
Obviously that's a bit of hyperbole, but your perspective of them WILL change if you switch sides.
Hans
RE: Betty's
As ever...I agree with Hans 100%..ORIGINAL: HansBolter
ORIGINAL: RCH
You guys have a good game here. I'm trying to learn playing the Guadalcanal scenario. I've been learning just playing through so far with the help on a few videos, manual, and this forum. I am stuck with a question about Betty bombers. What are they good for? For getting killed is all that I can figure. I have tried bombs and torpedoes, but they rarely hit anything and always get slaughtered. That is with or with out fighter support. I am talking naval attack missions.
What altitude and how do I use these expensive paper airplanes???????????
Switch sides and your perspective on them will change considerably.
They can find lone ships on the other side of the planet and put a fish in them 99.9% of the time.
36 of them can arrive unescorted and after shooting down 35 of them the lone survivor will penetrate your CAP and put a fish in your CV every time.
If a lone betty gets through it is guaranteed not to miss.
Obviously that's a bit of hyperbole, but your perspective of them WILL change if you switch sides.
Remember..in real life those planes were a huge fuel tank with NO armor protection until late in the war, but if they launch torpedoes at ships..well....have you ever heard of the King George Vth and Prince Of Wales ??
Those were Betty's and Nells, half carrying torpedoes..
RE: Betty's
ORIGINAL: m10bob
As ever...I agree with Hans 100%..
Remember..in real life those planes were a huge fuel tank with NO armor protection until late in the war, but if they launch torpedoes at ships..well....have you ever heard of the King George Vth and Prince Of Wales ??
Those were Betty's and Nells, half carrying torpedoes..
King George Vth ??? [&:]
- Jorge_Stanbury
- Posts: 4345
- Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:57 pm
- Location: Montreal
RE: Betty's
To the OP: you might be sending them with torpedoes against highly maneuverable targets = Destroyers.
RE: Betty's
Every time I shoot a Betty down, an angel gets it's wings.....[;)]
I am the Holy Roman Emperor and am above grammar.
Sigismund of Luxemburg
Sigismund of Luxemburg
- pontiouspilot
- Posts: 1131
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:09 pm
RE: Betty's
I feel the same way as CR. Generally I play the Allies and I would trade 2xsquadrons of 1942 B-17s for 1 sentai of Betties!
RE: Betty's
ORIGINAL: m10bob
As ever...I agree with Hans 100%..
Remember..in real life those planes were a huge fuel tank with NO armor protection until late in the war, but if they launch torpedoes at ships..well....have you ever heard of the King George Vth and Prince Of Wales ??
Those were Betty's and Nells, half carrying torpedoes..
I think you meant Prince of Wales and Repulse? King George V wasn't sent to the Far East until late 44.
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: Betty's
My advice is to save them for when it counts. Meaning leave them on naval attack and preferably cut their range to that of their best escorts (at this point should be A6M2s with drop tanks; so range 14).
They are paper airplanes to be sure, but they can carry one big firecracker, so use them wisely. [;)]
They are paper airplanes to be sure, but they can carry one big firecracker, so use them wisely. [;)]
Distant Worlds Fan
'When in doubt...attack!'
'When in doubt...attack!'
RE: Betty's
IIRC the Japanese aircrew referred to them as the Type II cigar.
=================================
Thank you for your replies and advice!!
"If you're in a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly" - Nick Lappos
Thank you for your replies and advice!!
"If you're in a fair fight, then you didn't plan it properly" - Nick Lappos
-
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- Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:16 am
RE: Betty's
Very long range and capable of carrying torpedoes, fantastic asset to have. They do get butchered by fighters though. The Allies just don't have a comparable aircraft, catalina maybe, but usually too valuable as a patrol aircraft to use in a ship attack role. Very vulnerable to CAP traps though.
RE: Betty's
Yup....Gotta take my pills....[:D]ORIGINAL: wdolson
ORIGINAL: m10bob
As ever...I agree with Hans 100%..
Remember..in real life those planes were a huge fuel tank with NO armor protection until late in the war, but if they launch torpedoes at ships..well....have you ever heard of the King George Vth and Prince Of Wales ??
Those were Betty's and Nells, half carrying torpedoes..
I think you meant Prince of Wales and Repulse? King George V wasn't sent to the Far East until late 44.
Bill
- KenchiSulla
- Posts: 2956
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:19 pm
- Location: the Netherlands
RE: Betty's
May, 1943
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 03, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Trivandrum at 28,42
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 65 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 50
N1K1-J George x 33
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 21
Hurricane IIc Trop x 16
P-38E Lightning x 7
F4U-1 Corsair x 10
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 23 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Martlet II: 3 destroyed
Hurricane IIc Trop: 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed
Allied Ships
BB Revenge, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Resolution, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CA Hawkins
CA Sussex
Aircraft Attacking:
19 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
22 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(21 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 21 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
VMF-123 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-213 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
No.113 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
No.146 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
23rd FG/75th FS with P-38E Lightning (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
--------------------------------------------------
They are good ship killers when properly trained and escorted. They are good in the nav search role when properly trained, up to range 17 without excessive op losses. They are decent ground bombers but only against no or low flak....
The Betty is one of the most important early war bombers of the IJN... You can't do well without it....
A couple of groundrules:
- Do not use them when no escorts are available and enemy fighter are expected (even a handful of CAP will decimate your G4Ms)
- Do not use them low against FLAK concentrations, especially not in DBB....
- Do not use them in the naval bombing role (high risk, low gain). Torpedo the ships!
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR May 03, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Trivandrum at 28,42
Weather in hex: Light cloud
Raid detected at 65 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes
Japanese aircraft
G4M1 Betty x 50
N1K1-J George x 33
Allied aircraft
Martlet II x 21
Hurricane IIc Trop x 16
P-38E Lightning x 7
F4U-1 Corsair x 10
Japanese aircraft losses
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 23 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 5 destroyed by flak
N1K1-J George: 4 destroyed
Allied aircraft losses
Martlet II: 3 destroyed
Hurricane IIc Trop: 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed
Allied Ships
BB Revenge, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Resolution, Torpedo hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CA Hawkins
CA Sussex
Aircraft Attacking:
19 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
22 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 45cm Type 91 Torp
CAP engaged:
No.888 Sqn FAA with Martlet II (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(21 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 21 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
VMF-123 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
VMF-213 with F4U-1 Corsair (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 5 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 32000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 32000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
No.113 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 4 being recalled, 4 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
No.146 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIc Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 15000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 10 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
23rd FG/75th FS with P-38E Lightning (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 6 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 34000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 34000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
--------------------------------------------------
They are good ship killers when properly trained and escorted. They are good in the nav search role when properly trained, up to range 17 without excessive op losses. They are decent ground bombers but only against no or low flak....
The Betty is one of the most important early war bombers of the IJN... You can't do well without it....
A couple of groundrules:
- Do not use them when no escorts are available and enemy fighter are expected (even a handful of CAP will decimate your G4Ms)
- Do not use them low against FLAK concentrations, especially not in DBB....
- Do not use them in the naval bombing role (high risk, low gain). Torpedo the ships!
AKA Cannonfodder
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor