Updated WGSF OOB

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Tazak
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Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

Folks, I've attached an updated Western Group Soviet Forces OOB during 1979-1989, its still WIP but would like some feedback/review to see if I'm missed/messed anything

Change log:

Tank changes:
Added K series of command tanks – mainly cosmetic – removed a few rounds and ATGM to account for additional radios – THESE TANKS DO NOT ADD TO COMMAND POINT ALLOCATION!!!
Tank companies now have 9/12 tanks and 1 K tank
Tank battalions now have 1 company of ATGM firing tanks and 2 companies of normal tanks i.e. Bn HQ, 1 missile tank coy, 2 tank coy (exception is divisional tank battalion which remains non ATGM tanks)
Only tanks confirmed to be allocated to category A units in WGSF during 1979-1989 are now selectable in OOBs i.e. variants of T62/T64/T80 – T55/T72 were only part of NSWP or soviet forces based in Poland/USSR

Sam changes:
Separated SPSAM vehicles into regiment/division/army allotments
SA-9/SA-13 – regimental
SA-8/SA-15 – divisional
SA-6/SA-11 – army

Arty changes:
Separated Arty assets into regiment/division/army allotments
Div & army batteries increased to 8 barrels – MRLS still 6 launchers per battery throughout
2S1/D-30/D-74/M-46 (i.e. 122mm/130mm) – regimental
2S3/D20/2A36/2A65 (i.e. 152mm) – divisional
Everything else – army
Added ‘ACRV M1974’– cosmetic change only – copied and renamed MT-LB (utility version) to represent the FDC version of MT-LB, allocation is 1-2 per battery of SPARTY
Replaced trucks with MT-LB within BMP battalion mortar coys

Other changes:
Deleted 2nd & 3rd HQ from Div HQ – replaced with a single defence platoon (1 HQ, 2 rifle sections, 1 MANPAD, 1 RPG, 1 AGL, 1 jeep and 4 BTR)
Moved Divisional tank battalion from tank regt (MRR) to Divisional HQ
Added Division Arty groups – SP & towed versions – HQ, 3 battalions of arty, 1 battalion of MRLS (SP version in both DAGs)
Towed ATK battalion renamed to Divisional ATK battalion, removed 1 towed battery replaced with SPATGM Company
Strategic assets renamed Army Assets
Added BMP Forward security element (coy HQ, 2 mech platoons, 1 tank platoon) – listed under low level units
Added BTR Forward security element (coy HQ, 2 mech platoons, 1 tank platoon) – listed under low level units
Note: FSE are battalion level units and scenario designers will need to remove equal number of runners from within the battalion
9P149 AT-6 (both versions) now selectable within SP-ATGM coy
Hidden from OOB various aircraft not allocated to WGSF air armies (mainly the really old airframes)
Removed a lot of trucks/jeeps from various formations - these are supply trucks that are abstracted within NATO OOB but not from soviet OOB
Removed TI from BRM-1K (will look to create a late version with TI but certainly shouldn't have TI in 1973)
Attachments
SovietWGSFUSER.zip
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Tazak
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

Screenshots of some of the changes

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Tazak
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

and tank OOB


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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by CapnDarwin »

Tazak, awesome job. I love the refinement of the units by level. [&o][&o]

Are you also going to add in a CRP unit to the listing? I'm working something similar for Origins with the Soviet OMG/brigade structure of the late 80s. Could we also include your changes in the next update in the game data?

Thanks for the hard work!
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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Tazak
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Tazak, awesome job. I love the refinement of the units by level. [&o][&o]

Are you also going to add in a CRP unit to the listing? I'm working something similar for Origins with the Soviet OMG/brigade structure of the late 80s. Could we also include your changes in the next update in the game data?

Thanks for the hard work!

Thank you. By all means feel free to use any/all of this although its a bit messy under the hood but wanted to get something out for feedback (hopefully by some of our Russian community) while I refine and clean up.

Yes CRP and some other formations are on my to-do list such as creating a special tasking arty OOB for things like TOS-1, 240mm mortar, 2S12/2S4
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by JohnOsb »

Not trying to take the thunder away from Tazak [:)] but I've been doing that lately on my Warsaw Pact Database [:)] I've been using FM 100-2-3 Soviet Army, Troops, Organization, and Equipment dated 1991. I haven't post what I have done because finishing up the East Germans. I will take a look at what you have done and what I have done and will ask questions later today, either here or by PM.
Tazak
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

Hahaha, funny enough I used that FM as one of my sources as well but I've focus directly on WGSF and not the NSWP/other soviet groups but happy to share notes etc
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

Are you also going to add in a CRP unit to the listing? I'm working something similar for Origins with the Soviet OMG/brigade structure of the late 80s.

Similar to this I'm now thinking about creating a regiment size combat formation broken down into the following elements:

CRP
FSE
Advance Guard
Main Body

This would provide an alternative OOB laid out in combat formations ready for scenario designers rather than having to mix and match but having to creating MRR (both BMP & BTR) and TR (TD & MRD) variants cover the major ORBAT changes during early and late 80's will be a major rewrite, so without overloading the selection screen I'm thinking 'WGSF as is' and a 'WGSF Combat layout' or similar to my British ones - an early 80's OOB with division/regiment/combat, and a 2nd late 80's OOB with division/regiment/combat

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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by CapnDarwin »

That would be great. I wonder if we should allow for a larger file name to be displayed in the scenario editor so we could have more variant OOBs for each country instead of cramming different types in one. You can copy all of the other tabs and make a new formation tab. This would allow for easier customization of unit IDs too. Some more food for thought at Origins.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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Tazak
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

Sorry for the blank post earlier I noticed a big issue but more on that in the next post.

Here's my current pass on a BTR lead Battalion as part of a regiment deployed for advance towards FEBA

Combat formations BTR regiment

CRP: (flagged as recce)
BTR Platoon (3 BTR, 3 INF), Engineer recon (Scout + BTR), NBC recon (BRDM2)

FSE:
Coy HQ, 2 platoon, 1 Tank Platoon
AA Section
Bn Mortar

Advance guard:
Bn HQ (for HQ structure purposes Bn HQ is top of OOB)
2x coy (BTR)
Tank Coy (-)
AA Platoon – HQ = 2x ZSU-23-4, 2 sections of MANPADs
ATK platoon
Arty Bn

Main Body (still to do)
SAM platoon (+ 2 remaining SU-23-4)
Remaining RAG
Other 2 battalions
Tank Bn (-)


Please see next post for the BTR coy

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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

Done a big rewrite of the BTR coy but I think it may cause balance issues and very open to discussion

Looking at FM100-2-3 and the MRD TOE chart in section 4, it lists (between 2 BTR MMR) 12 AT3/4 (meaning either AT3 or AT4), the very next item in the list is AT7 with holdings being 54, which is 27 per regiment or 9 per battalion?
When you look further it lists the AGL with holdings of 36 or 18 per regiment or 6 per battalion

Looking at the AT7 section it details;
(2) Capabilities. The AT-7/SAXHORN is organic to the machine gun/antitank platoon of the BTR-equipped motorized rifle company (MRC). This platoon has three manpack launchers.


So using a support platoon as in the BMP coys and adding in 3 AT7 launchers and 1 additional BTR (for the AT7) it just breaks the wheeled status limit, deleting 1 MMG from the OOB returns it to wheeled status which I feel is a good trade off.

Balance issue is now the BTR coy is no longer the laughing stock of the mech troop world packing a hefty punch with the following changes +3 AT7 (fixed), +2 AGL, +2 H/MMG, +1 BTR, -1 MANPAD, -1 ATGM

thoughts?


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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

BTR MRR now complete, if you want shots of anything let me know as I'll be posting an updated user data sheet once all deployed formations (MRR & TK) are done

in the mean time here's some high level detail

High light changes:
BTR MRR now consists as per screen shot
Image
RHQ
Rgt Recon coy
Lead BTR Bn (+)
Rgt support (AA & ATK)
Tank Bn (-)
2x BTR Bn

BTR Bn now closer resemble BMP battalions in terms of AGL/MMG/MANPADs
BTR Coy now have support plt (AGL/MMG/AT7)
BTR Bn MANPAD plt increased to plt size (3 sections of 1xBTR & 3x MANPADs)
Rgt AD coy split down into section sized units for better AD coverage and 1x SPAAA section moved into Lead Bn

Changes have the following impact in game:

Original OOB provided the following :
Summary of assets under your command: 11 Recce, 43 Tank, 125 APC, 81 Inf, 9 SP AT, 39 AT, 43 HQ, 44 AD, 36 Arty, 65 Utility.
VP 4597
HQ radio activity 53/hr

Revised deployed OOB:
Summary of assets under your command: 10 Recce, 43 Tank, 150 APC, 117 Inf, 9 SP AT, 57 AT, 44 HQ, 35 AD, 36 Arty, 39 Utility.
VP 5057
HQ radio summary 56/hr




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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by DoubleDeuce »

Excellent work!
Tazak
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

Cheers, hopefully with the increase in firepower we might start seeing BTR equipped units more in scenarios. Biggest problem was trying very hard not to NATO-ise the OOB [:)]
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by CapnDarwin »

One issue with the ATGM teams is how many are really launchers and how many are reloads. How does that factor in?
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by IronMikeGolf »

Organic vs Attached

I think it's important that for all nations, we respect the fact that there are special weapons platoons (AT, AGL, AD, etc) and that those platoon remain platoons in TOE/OOB. I say that, despite the fact that in the vast majority of situations, those assets get routinely attached to line platoons and companies. For example, in the MRB, we have an AGL platoon, an AD Platoon, and an AT Platoon.

It's a tempting shortcut to just fold in 1/3 of each of these platoons into each MRC. But, there are side effects. First, with a scenario using a human Soviet side, the commander loses the flexibility to apportion these assets according to the situation at hand. Second, and this is a game engine mechanic issue, losing a couple of APCs from attachments would put an MRC in leg movement mode. I doubt that would happen in a flesh and iron situation. The MRC commander would continue to move and leave those fallouts behind.
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Tazak
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

Almost done the BMP MRR and started to look at tank regiments (using FM100-2-3 as source as it has the most complete listings) and there's a large change in the number of tanks in MRD/TD

Have to start at battalion level to explain, there's 4 basic battalions;

BTR Bn (normal OOB of HQ, 3x Coy, Mtr, AA plt)
BMP Bn (normal OOB of HQ, 3x Coy, Mtr, AA plt)
Tank Battalion (TR) 30 tanks
Tank Battalion (MRR) 40 tanks

these are used to make up 4 regiments;
BTR Regt - 3x BTR Bn, 1x Tank Battalion (MRR) 40 tanks, normal support elements
BMP Regt - 3x BMP Bn, 1x Tank Battalion (MRR) 40 tanks, normal support elements
Tank Regt (TD) - 3x Tank Battalion (TR) 30 tanks, 1x BMP Bn, normal support elements
Tank Regt (MRD) - 3x Tank Battalion (TR) 30 tanks, normal support elements

This means that the TR within the MRD losses 30 tanks and the BMP bn support while the TD gains 10 tanks through use of the MRR tank battalions in its attached MRR



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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

ORIGINAL: Capn Darwin

One issue with the ATGM teams is how many are really launchers and how many are reloads. How does that factor in?

The OOB charts list launchers, but doesn't refer to the ammo count for any weapon system. I've used the default ammo load

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf

Organic vs Attached

I think it's important that for all nations, we respect the fact that there are special weapons platoons (AT, AGL, AD, etc) and that those platoon remain platoons in TOE/OOB. I say that, despite the fact that in the vast majority of situations, those assets get routinely attached to line platoons and companies. For example, in the MRB, we have an AGL platoon, an AD Platoon, and an AT Platoon.

It's a tempting shortcut to just fold in 1/3 of each of these platoons into each MRC. But, there are side effects. First, with a scenario using a human Soviet side, the commander loses the flexibility to apportion these assets according to the situation at hand. Second, and this is a game engine mechanic issue, losing a couple of APCs from attachments would put an MRC in leg movement mode. I doubt that would happen in a flesh and iron situation. The MRC commander would continue to move and leave those fallouts behind.

The FM clearly refers to a organic platoon as part of the company, there is still the battalion AT plt equipped with AT4 launchers

The AT-7/SAXHORN is organic to the machine gun/antitank platoon of the BTR-equipped motorized rifle company (MRC).

The only part of the ORBAT split between the 3 coy is the AGL platoon (6 units - 2 per coy) but this is inline with what was done in the original OOB, only the Bn AT & Bn AAA is split down to sections but only 1 AA section has been 'attached' to the FSE rather than incorporated into it
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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by Tazak »

BMP MRR deployed in line of march towards FEBA

Couple of minor issues (BTR in CRP, and tank in regt recce) but they've been corrected

Summary of assets under your command: 10 Recce, 43 Tank, 138 APC, 135 Inf, 9 SP AT, 6 AT, 38 HQ, 23 AD, 18 SP Arty, 18 Arty, 18 Utility.
HQ radio activity 43 per Hr
VP - 5088


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RE: Updated WGSF OOB

Post by JohnOsb »

Again not trying to take anything away from this but for you people out there wondering what FM Tazak is referring to here is three links to my dropbox with those FMs in question.

FM 100-2-1

FM 100-2-2

FM 100-2-3

Was wondering if it would be best to create a separate thread forum, for documents, FMs, or anything else that would help players build or play with OPFOR tactics?
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