Option 47

[Centuur]

They didn't change his name, since Sponge Bob when translated into Dutch would become Spons Bob, which is pronounced about the same.

[NielsJuel]

Paying premium price for a game sets different expectations than if you willingly, preferably at a lower price, pay to acces a public beta. There is something with the business model of many in the gaming industry, or at least it needs to be made clear to potential customers what product they are buying. Because, call me naive, I want to have the option to pass beta testing games and at the same time pay full price and I thought that was what I did when I bought the game after it´s release. Labeling is important and I wasn´t aware that I bought a game still in beta phase.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: NielsJuel

Paying premium price for a game sets different expectations than if you willingly, preferably at a lower price, pay to acces a public beta. There is something with the business model of many in the gaming industry, or at least it needs to be made clear to potential customers what product they are buying. Because, call me naive, I want to have the option to pass beta testing games and at the same time pay full price and I thought that was what I did when I bought the game after it´s release. Labeling is important and I wasn´t aware that I bought a game still in beta phase.

Agreed the game was not labeled properly for that kind of money to be put out of one's pocket IMO. Again just my opinion but I feel that this game was forced onto the market by powers other than Steve, Erik and Matrix. Do I officially know this of course not, just an educated guess.

Your comment about beta phase is a good one as I never thought about that before your comment. There are some players here who are very happy about the game being out warts and all, and truthfully I feel good for them. to each his own.

There are good people with good intentions here who feel that it was alright to release the game as there would be many more eyes to catch bugs and such, I personally am not in that group.

Matrix made a huge mistake in putting this very complex game into the hands of one programmer instead of a team IMO. Health of one person can be a major factor where there is no backup. A team can work in several different directions, one programmer working on the AI, one working on net play, one working on implementing all the rules etc.

But we all know this costs money and it seems Matrix was not about to head in that direction, nor can I find fault with them over that major issue.

From what I understood the programmer received no compensation from Matrix until the game went on the market, is this true, who knows. But that could be a major reason why after 10 years Matrix has not pulled the plug on this game as they are not personally seeing a financial loss, and also not much of a financial gain which is why they are in business.

To older players such as myself who would like to play MWIF with an AI and netplay this is a burden on us, to younger players it is a wait and see and whenever type of game.

I believe without truly knowing this that the game is stuck on net play, even a simple or what should be a simple Barbarossa is non playable on netplay at this time and as of yet I am not convinced it will ever be done right and this is a total shame.

There have been comments about this has turned into one mans hobby, this is a possibility if you use common sense. One good thing out of all this mess is the word hobby, which means the programmer will never ever give up as his ego will not allow that.

Many other very good games leave you high and dry after a year as the company is on to its next game. This will never happen here "NEVER" unless health intervenes, always a possibility.

I am not a happy player with MWIF, I am not criticising anyone here in any way shape or form but this could have been the finest most compelling game ever put on a computer and of right now it is far from that.

Bo

[rkr1958]

MWiF is my only practical access to learning and playing WiF. Without it, WiF would be a mysterious, complex and distance game to me and would stay that way. I am one who is grateful it was released because without it what would I spend my spare time doing? [8D]

Seriously though, is it perfect? No, is anything really prefect? Is it playable? For me, it's 100% playable. Is it correct? Not owning or ever playing WiF I can only answer this from my understanding of history and from the perspective of other strategic WW2 games that I own and play. By far, and I mean far, it's the most correct and complete strategic level game of WW2 that I've every played.

I know $100 is a lot of money, but really, what this game delivers in terms of "correctness", "completeness" and, I'll add, computer gui, management, etc to that list makes it well worth the money in my humble opinion. Also, the promise of continued development and improvement multiplies that value (again in my humble opinion).

The way I see it, the market for MWiF, and WiF, is a niche market. I don't know if we're a dying breed but we're certainly an aging and fading one I think. Who else but Matrix and Steve would take this on for such a small market and a cost of $100 per license?

[bo]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

MWiF is my only practical access to learning and playing WiF. Without it, WiF would be a mysterious, complex and distance game to me and would stay that way. I am one who is grateful it was released because without it what would I spend my spare time doing? [8D]

Seriously though, is it perfect? No, is anything really prefect? Is it playable? For me, it's 100% playable. Is it correct? Not owning or ever playing WiF I can only answer this from my understanding of history and from the perspective of other strategic WW2 games that I own and play. By far, and I mean far, it's the most correct and complete strategic level game of WW2 that I've every played.

I know $100 is a lot of money, but really, what this game delivers in terms of "correctness", "completeness" and, I'll add, computer gui, management, etc to that list makes it well worth the money in my humble opinion. Also, the promise of continued development and improvement multiplies that value (again in my humble opinion).

The way I see it, the market for MWiF, and WiF, is a niche market. I don't know if we're a dying breed but we're certainly an aging and fading one I think. Who else but Matrix and Steve would take this on for such a small market and a cost of $100 per license?

Thank you for your reply rkr, I said above it you enjoy the game then who am I to complain, unless your playing hot seat with a friend you are most likely playing solitaire and I am the first to admit it is the only game that can be played solitaire [at least the games I know] but rkr this was not designed just for solitaire and I know you know that.

Many of the beta people want netplay but I prefer the AI good bad or soso I do not care. Until that day this game is far from complete and this game should have been delivered that way regardless of the price, just my feelings rkr wrong or right.

Bo

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

MWiF is my only practical access to learning and playing WiF. Without it, WiF would be a mysterious, complex and distance game to me and would stay that way. I am one who is grateful it was released because without it what would I spend my spare time doing? [8D]

Seriously though, is it perfect? No, is anything really prefect? Is it playable? For me, it's 100% playable. Is it correct? Not owning or ever playing WiF I can only answer this from my understanding of history and from the perspective of other strategic WW2 games that I own and play. By far, and I mean far, it's the most correct and complete strategic level game of WW2 that I've every played.

I know $100 is a lot of money, but really, what this game delivers in terms of "correctness", "completeness" and, I'll add, computer gui, management, etc to that list makes it well worth the money in my humble opinion. Also, the promise of continued development and improvement multiplies that value (again in my humble opinion).

The way I see it, the market for MWiF, and WiF, is a niche market. I don't know if we're a dying breed but we're certainly an aging and fading one I think. Who else but Matrix and Steve would take this on for such a small market and a cost of $100 per license?

Thank you for your reply rkr, I said above it you enjoy the game then who am I to complain, unless your playing hot seat with a friend you are most likely playing solitaire and I am the first to admit it is the only game that can be played solitaire [at least the games I know] but rkr this was not designed just for solitaire and I know you know that.

Many of the beta people want netplay but I prefer the AI good bad or soso I do not care. Until that day this game is far from complete and this game should have been delivered that way regardless of the price, just my feelings rkr wrong or right.

Bo

I too hold out hope for an adequate AI one day. With respect to release, I do remember a thread (may have been the status thread) where a group of folks (small maybe I don't know) were begging for release of the game in any state. With that said, I do understand your frustrations, and those of others, who purchased MWiF with certain expectations, either at release or shortly thereafter, that haven't been met.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: bo
Matrix made a huge mistake in putting this very complex game into the hands of one programmer instead of a team IMO. Health of one person can be a major factor where there is no backup. A team can work in several different directions, one programmer working on the AI, one working on net play, one working on implementing all the rules etc.

But we all know this costs money and it seems Matrix was not about to head in that direction, nor can I find fault with them over that major issue.

Bo,

You keep talking like Matrix had a viable option other than Steve doing this mostly on his own.

A team of programmers requires RESOURCES, which is expensive. IMO, the ROI (Return-on-Investment) on this project couldn't support this.

I have never disagreed with your position that it should have been delayed as we talked about at release time.
That doesn't make us right and Matrix wrong, releasing a product is a complicated issue.

Without a doubt until the base game bugs are cleared up, there cannot be a workable AI. This has been the case from day 1.

So keep hoping for Steve to have good health and maybe someday MWIF will be the game we want it to be.

[juntoalmar]

I agree with rkr1958. The game is not perfect at the moment (and will never be), but it has given me the best (by far) wargaming experience ever. So I am very glad that they released the game, and that I bought it. In terms of money and time, it has been one of my best investments.

As flipperwasirish said, Matrix (as company) looks for profit from the development. If the game has taken 10 years of development... what would be the cost of a small developers team working in it? Let's sat 4 developers could have finished in 5 years? Compare that, to the numbers of copies they could have sold. Hardly to believe there would be any benefit in the end.

One more point. I think calling MWiF a hobby, is unfair for Steve. If someone tells you he's working on a hobby, how many hours do you think he would be working on a week? 2, 10, 40? It seems to me he has put a lot of work into this project, to call it a hobby. But it's just my opinion, nobody get offended, please.

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
That doesn't make us right and Matrix wrong, releasing a product is a complicated issue.

I have to disagree with you here, I consider that Matrix was clearly wrong--they charged a premium price for a beta product without notice to potential buyers that it was a beta product. How can that be considered right?! And I don't think that issue is very complicated, either.

One other thing: I am entirely unsympathetic to any claims that Matrix "didn't know" or even "couldn't know" that the game was in beta form when released... This is their business, how could they not know? If they didn't have enough beta testers involved to realize the scope of the problems, they should have used more, or tested longer. If they did know the scope of the problems and released anyway without making this clear to customers, that is even worse. You would think that they would have learned their lesson from EiA, which is also a complicated board game from ADG with a very unhappy development history at Matrix. This wasn't their first rodeo...

I understand that there were a lot of die-hard WiF fans pressing for an early release--that is who the game in beta form should have been marketed to upon release, they should have been eager to buy the game to support its development. I would certainly do the same for other games that I am following.

[juntoalmar]

Well, actually, software development is a complicated issue.

Not trying to justify or defend Matrix here, but just think of the money, resources and people working in Microsoft or Apple, and what Windows Millennium (or Vista) and Apple Maps were on release. I am convinced (and this is a personal opinion) that if they knew these bugs would arise, they would have wait a bit more. But then... they wouldn't have found many of them.

I am not a WiF core gamer. Actually I had never played WiF before MWiF (and I would have never done, too complicated to enforce the rules myself). So I am enjoying a lot this game. Even in it's actual state, it's been the best wargaming experience I have ever had. But I completely understand your concerns and disagreement about how things have happened. I knew what I was buying, but that's because I followed the forum for a few months before I bought it. I definitely agree that people who bought the game without having read anything before, many of them may think they didn't get what they expected.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo
Matrix made a huge mistake in putting this very complex game into the hands of one programmer instead of a team IMO. Health of one person can be a major factor where there is no backup. A team can work in several different directions, one programmer working on the AI, one working on net play, one working on implementing all the rules etc.

But we all know this costs money and it seems Matrix was not about to head in that direction, nor can I find fault with them over that major issue.

Bo,

You keep talking like Matrix had a viable option other than Steve doing this mostly on his own.

A team of programmers requires RESOURCES, which is expensive. IMO, the ROI (Return-on-Investment) on this project couldn't support this.

I have never disagreed with your position that it should have been delayed as we talked about at release time.
That doesn't make us right and Matrix wrong, releasing a product is a complicated issue.

Without a doubt until the base game bugs are cleared up, there cannot be a workable AI. This has been the case from day 1.

So keep hoping for Steve to have good health and maybe someday MWIF will be the game we want it to be.

Come on Flipper, please we have known each other for years, we agree and disagree on things but always respectively. Agreed Matrix probably had no choice money wise than to do it the way that they did. You brought up a workable AI again and I do not blame you for that though because I have always pushed for a workable AI from day one so that is on me.

Releasing a product is a complicated issue I cannot agree or disagree with that because I have no knowledge how Matrix handles other war games or programmers like Grigsby [WitW or WitE]

On that note I would like to know how Matrix handles war games that they put on the market, I would assume they invest nothing except advertising if that even costs them any funds.

You mention clearing up bugs before a workable AI, what does the AI have to do with anything? We have no net play right now and if Barbarossa the most simplest of all scenarios cannot be played on netplay what then?

I have asked the powers that be to release Fascist Tide [half map] to the general public so that players who might be overwhelmed by Global War could at least sink their teeth in a game that was not over in five turns [Guadalcanal and Barbarossa] but I am told that certain rules need to be implemented so that the scenario would be exactly defined like the WIF board game rules.

And that is the problem the word "exactly defined" most war gamers could care less about the word "exactly defined", they just want to play.

Keep Steve in good health, we all want that Flipper as without Steve this product is doomed.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar

I agree with rkr1958. The game is not perfect at the moment (and will never be), but it has given me the best (by far) wargaming experience ever. So I am very glad that they released the game, and that I bought it. In terms of money and time, it has been one of my best investments.

As flipperwasirish said, Matrix (as company) looks for profit from the development. If the game has taken 10 years of development... what would be the cost of a small developers team working in it? Let's sat 4 developers could have finished in 5 years? Compare that, to the numbers of copies they could have sold. Hardly to believe there would be any benefit in the end.

One more point. I think calling MWiF a hobby, is unfair for Steve. If someone tells you he's working on a hobby, how many hours do you think he would be working on a week? 2, 10, 40? It seems to me he has put a lot of work into this project, to call it a hobby. But it's just my opinion, nobody get offended, please.

I'm offended juntoalmar [:D] the only reason I am going to be nice to you is that I was hoping you would invite me the the most beautiful island in the world "BALI"[;)]

The word hobby was brought up in the general forums by a person who shall in this post remain nameless [:(] I found the word interesting as I had never even considered it before, no it is not fair to call it Steve's hobby with all countless hours he put into this.

If it is Steve's lifelong goal to bring MWIF to the computer screen in all of it's glory, then if Matrix pulls the plug [who knows what the shadow knows[&:]] he might be able to do this very thing as a hobby. Hopefully it will be completed with Matrix's blessing.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish
That doesn't make us right and Matrix wrong, releasing a product is a complicated issue.

I have to disagree with you here, I consider that Matrix was clearly wrong--they charged a premium price for a beta product without notice to potential buyers that it was a beta product. How can that be considered right?! And I don't think that issue is very complicated, either.

One other thing: I am entirely unsympathetic to any claims that Matrix "didn't know" or even "couldn't know" that the game was in beta form when released... This is their business, how could they not know? If they didn't have enough beta testers involved to realize the scope of the problems, they should have used more, or tested longer. If they did know the scope of the problems and released anyway without making this clear to customers, that is even worse. You would think that they would have learned their lesson from EiA, which is also a complicated board game from ADG with a very unhappy development history at Matrix. This wasn't their first rodeo...

I understand that there were a lot of die-hard WiF fans pressing for an early release--that is who the game in beta form should have been marketed to upon release, they should have been eager to buy the game to support its development. I would certainly do the same for other games that I am following.

76mm I am in total agreement with your assessment, I seem to be the only beta tester agreeing with some of the more truthful assessment posts, It might not seem this way but I dread being alone without backup which means one of two things either I am totally off base [possible] or others do not have the fortitude to speak up with the assessment that "what good would it do now after all these nine years". [Probably the wiser course] Or just maybe they see things different than I do.

But this I believe heart and soul that if Matrix was a real company, brick and mortar, a lot of personal involved with Matrix's World In Flames would have been fired on Nov 7th 2013 including me.

Not a knock on Matrix because without Erik and the rest of his staff we would not have our beloved war games to play on our computers, thank you Matrix and long life to you and your personal.

Bo

[NielsJuel]

I am also in agreement. I think, in hindsight, that it should have been released as an early access beta version for those interested, preferably at a lower price. Firstly because that was the state of the game on release (or do anyone disagree) and secondly it would have satisfied many of those pushing for it´s release and willing to contribute to it´s completion as beta testers ( kudos to you). Then the rest of us could make an informed decision whether we want to wait and see or dive in and help. But instead I bought a game, which I love, in a condition that was not what I expected and I still think Matrix failed to label it correct.
Erik Rutins failure to give a state of the game March 2015 despite his promise to do so, in my opinion also definitely marks the end of Matrix games interest in the game as they have moved their focus to other games.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: NielsJuel

I am also in agreement. I think, in hindsight, that it should have been released as an early access beta version for those interested, preferably at a lower price. Firstly because that was the state of the game on release (or do anyone disagree) and secondly it would have satisfied many of those pushing for it´s release and willing to contribute to it´s completion as beta testers ( kudos to you). Then the rest of us could make an informed decision whether we want to wait and see or dive in and help. But instead I bought a game, which I love, in a condition that was not what I expected and I still think Matrix failed to label it correct.
Erik Rutins failure to give a state of the game March 2015 despite his promise to do so, in my opinion also definitely marks the end of Matrix games interest in the game as they have moved their focus to other games.

Hi Niels, To hear you say you love the game makes me feel good as I too love the game, maybe I do not sound like it at times, it's just my disappointment where the game is at this time.

I have to disagree slightly with you about Erik and the state of the game. First and foremost I am not a fan boy or homeboy for Matrix [;)] But without them there would be many less war games on the market. Should Erik say something hmmm I guess, but what should he say if the head programmer has nothing to say to him.

Should he say, "hang in there people we are getting there", or the "state of the game is good" How many of US Presidents have said in January the state of the union is good because of me your wonderful president and actually the state of the union is in bad shape, referring to all of our Presidents by the way not just the current one.

I find no fault with Erik not saying anything other than he should not have said on April 7th 2015 "I will have a new state of the game in a few weeks".

Conclusion: He had no information available from the programmer or the information he had received was not real good, so then he could not and should not speak on his own of conjecture [incomplete information] or rumors. Please give him some leeway for using "common sense".

Bo

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar
Well, actually, software development is a complicated issue.

For the record, I never said that software development isn't complicated--of course it is.

What isn't complicated is the decision to release a beta product as if it were a final product. And while it might be "complicated" to determine what is a beta product, this is Matrix's business after all--they've released how many dozens of games over the last few years? Sorry, but I think they should have figured that part of the business out by now. And I hate to keep repeating this, but they had an very similar experience with EiA but apparently didn't learn any lessons. And I was less than satisfied with WitE upon its release as well. And while they did a commendable job patching and repatching WitE as well as possible, the same can't be said about EiA (which I had hoped to buy but ultimately did not based on the poor reviews).

To be clear, this is not a frothing rant against Matrix--I bought dozens of their games over the years, and am sure that I'll buy more, but at this point I tend to wait a few months after release to get a better understanding from the state of the game from the forums before buying.

[Centuur]

Why should Matrix pull the plug if they've got a programmer still working on this? They've made the costs already and only have to pick up the profits. The only thing which is costing money is probably storage space for the books and a server and that's it. The rest has already been paid for...

Some people call it Steve's hobby. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Sure, it has it's downsides, but the main thing in favour of this is that anyone who's made his hobby into his work is dedicated to the product he is making. That's a very good thing, because it means that Steve will continue developing this monster, for as long as he stays healthy. He only needs Matrix as a place to sell this product and to provide him with webspace and a server to run his product on...

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Why should Matrix pull the plug if they've got a programmer still working on this? They've made the costs already and only have to pick up the profits. The only thing which is costing money is probably storage space for the books and a server and that's it. The rest has already been paid for...

Some people call it Steve's hobby. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Sure, it has it's downsides, but the main thing in favour of this is that anyone who's made his hobby into his work is dedicated to the product he is making. That's a very good thing, because it means that Steve will continue developing this monster, for as long as he stays healthy. He only needs Matrix as a place to sell this product and to provide him with webspace and a server to run his product on...

+ 1 [;)]

Bo

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Centuur

Why should Matrix pull the plug if they've got a programmer still working on this? They've made the costs already and only have to pick up the profits. The only thing which is costing money is probably storage space for the books and a server and that's it. The rest has already been paid for...

Some people call it Steve's hobby. Is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Sure, it has it's downsides, but the main thing in favour of this is that anyone who's made his hobby into his work is dedicated to the product he is making. That's a very good thing, because it means that Steve will continue developing this monster, for as long as he stays healthy. He only needs Matrix as a place to sell this product and to provide him with webspace and a server to run his product on...

+ 1 [;)]

Bo

+2 [8D]

[juntoalmar]

@Bo: And who said your are not invited to come to Bali, my friend? Please come, we have nice beaches, volcanos, fabulous local culture, great diving, a WWII wreck (USAT Liberty) and, at least, one MWiF player, so you can have a complete holidays! [:D]

@76mm: my apologies, as I misunderstood your statement. I fully agree with you. Saying clearly upon release the state of the game (call it pre-release, or whatever) would have helped many people not to buy (yet) the game. Not me, as I would have still bought it, but the "damage" would have been more controlled, as the customers would be ready "to get dirty" in fixing the game.

About Erik "no post": I have to disagree with Bo. If you promise to send a post informing of the state of the game "in a few weeks" you own us to do it. If you have nothing to say yet, an email saying "Sorry guys, I promised an update on the game, but unfortunately I don't have the information yet so I will again in X days/weeks to keep you updated" will mean he cares, and wants to keep his word. If he doesn't say anything, we are totally blind about why he didn't (he doesn't care? he's collecting info? nothing to say yet?). It's just bad communication, which could be easily fixed.

About "hobby": if with hobby you mean "anyone who's made his hobby into his work is dedicated to the product he is making", I'm happy with that. I would use the word "passion" then. I understood "hobby" as saying "working a few hours on the weekend for this / working unprofessionally"