Pelton(GHC) vs Pitman Resigned GHC Victory T-15

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chaos45
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by chaos45 »

Well Im next on Peltons chopping block so will see. I could be mistaken but the Logistics are very, very generous to the Axis is what Im seeing. Started to test games against people to test my tactics one quit when he had an early mud turn but both said my moves werent affecting their logistics at all...if thats the case the game has some serious issues as the Germans shouldnt be able to just keep advancing with no issues away from the rail lines.

Looking at the this game I almost laugh because only in Germans wildest dreams could they supply those positions in the real situation. Rostov was a winter 41 conquest...and surrounding moscow/taking rostov in September of 41....again the Soviet player made some mistakes but those germans units realistically should be short/out of near everything supply wise and low CV. I highly doubt thats the case and they could probably withstand counterattacks by the best Soviets units on the board with ease.

Looking forward to the next patch toning down the Germans some as it does seem they need beat with the nerf bat. Not just from Peltons game but also an earlier one by Sapper.

From my brief experience so far in online server play the Soviets seems a tad pathetic compared to real life...the germans constantly praised how hard the Soviets fought and the losses they inflicted on the German army even early on in this campaign. Most German memories talk about how very early on their units suffered casualties and that the Enemy fought more determinedly in the east than all the other campaigns....yet the Soviets roll over die, and cant counterattack a wet paperbag in the game.

So yet hopefully next patch tones down logistics, greatly needed....and increases losses for both sides. Really tired of seeing Soviet attacks where the Germasn are outnumber 3:1 yes somehow the Germans lose 1 squad to kill like 1,000 Soviets lol. Fix that junk and the game will become more realistic right off....even a failed attack should attrit the defender some is really how the Germans lost the real war.

They won tactically over and over again but each time they took losses and eventually not enough Germans were left and then the line breaks. At a 100:1 exchange rate that will never happen, and well if your exchanging that bad what are you attacking with untrained children with no weapons? Think the Soviets deserve abit more credit than that.

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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by morvael »

Next patch should help.
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Peltonx
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: HITMAN202

Pelton, so many people will say "another unskilled victim", but overlook the talent it takes to handle the German side so decisively. Wonderful play, or do I say, " he,he,he" ???

Look around see any other AAR's with same results?

I know I played allot of 6-0 8-0 unskilled Russian players.

Have agreat weekend bro
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Peltonx
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Well Im next on Peltons chopping block so will see. I could be mistaken but the Logistics are very,
very generous to the Axis is what Im seeing.
Started to test games against people to test my tactics one quit when he had an early mud turn but both said my moves werent
affecting their logistics at all...if thats the case the game has some serious issues as the Germans shouldnt be able to just
keep advancing with no issues away from the rail lines.

Talk is cheap, show some picture

Looking at the this game I almost laugh because only in Germans wildest dreams could they supply those positions in the real
situation. Rostov was a winter 41 conquest...and surrounding moscow/taking rostov in September of 41....again the Soviet player
made some mistakes but those germans units realistically should be short/out of near everything supply wise and low CV. I highly
doubt thats the case and they could probably withstand counterattacks by the best Soviets units on the board with ease.



Looking forward to the next patch toning down the Germans some as it does seem they need beat with the nerf bat. Not just from
Peltons game but also an earlier one by Sapper.

Saper games I would not judge as normal as there were on not based on rulestes

From my brief experience so far in online server play the Soviets seems a tad pathetic compared to real life...the germans
constantly praised how hard the Soviets fought and the losses they inflicted on the German army even early on in this campaign.
Most German memories talk about how very early on their units suffered casualties and that the Enemy fought more determinedly in
the east than all the other campaigns....yet the Soviets roll over die, and cant counterattack a wet paperbag in the game.

So yet hopefully next patch tones down logistics, greatly needed....and increases losses for both sides. Really tired of seeing
Soviet attacks where the Germasn are outnumber 3:1 yes somehow the Germans lose 1 squad to kill like 1,000 Soviets lol. Fix that
junk and the game will become more realistic right off....even a failed attack should attrit the defender some is really how the
Germans lost the real war.

They won tactically over and over again but each time they took losses and eventually not enough Germans were left and then the
line breaks. At a 100:1 exchange rate that will never happen, and well if your exchanging that bad what are you attacking with
untrained children with no weapons? Think the Soviets deserve abit more credit than that.

Historicialy speak with out trucks from USA Russia was toast in 42.


Historical losses.

Historical losses on Eastern front, only includes KIA,MIA,WIA

——————German——————-Russian————Ratio

1941
3rd—————551,000——————2,795,000———-5 to 1
4th—————280,000——————1,598,000———-5.7to 1
1942
1st—————280,000——————1,686,000———-6 to 1
2nd—————220,000——————1,395,000———-6.3 to 1
3rd—————383,000——————2,371,000———-6 to 1
4th—————177,000——————1,281,000———-7.2 to 1
1943
1st—————498,000——————1,908,000———3.8 to 1
2nd—————110,000——————444,000———-4 to 1
3rd—————533,000——————2,633,000———-5 to 1
4th—————381,000——————1,939,000———-5 to 1
1944
1st—————423,000——————1,859,000———-4.4 to 1
2nd—————352,000——————1,021,000———-3 to 1
3rd—————879,000——————1,771,000———-2 to 1
4th—————297,000——————1,086,000———-3.6 to 1


Historical population of Germany and Russia

Germany 80 million

Russian 170 million

Who is grinding who down historicaly?

The data speak for its self

Western Allies saved Russia from getting ground down by Germany.

The facts simply don't support the politics.
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Peltonx
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Well Im next on Peltons chopping block so will see. I could be mistaken but the Logistics are very, very generous to the Axis is what Im seeing. Started to test games against people to test my tactics one quit when he had an early mud turn but both said my moves werent affecting their logistics at all...if thats the case the game has some serious issues as the Germans shouldnt be able to just keep advancing with no issues away from the rail lines.

Looking at the this game I almost laugh because only in Germans wildest dreams could they supply those positions in the real situation. Rostov was a winter 41 conquest...and surrounding moscow/taking rostov in September of 41....again the Soviet player made some mistakes but those germans units realistically should be short/out of near everything supply wise and low CV. I highly doubt thats the case and they could probably withstand counterattacks by the best Soviets units on the board with ease.

Looking forward to the next patch toning down the Germans some as it does seem they need beat with the nerf bat. Not just from Peltons game but also an earlier one by Sapper.

From my brief experience so far in online server play the Soviets seems a tad pathetic compared to real life...the germans constantly praised how hard the Soviets fought and the losses they inflicted on the German army even early on in this campaign. Most German memories talk about how very early on their units suffered casualties and that the Enemy fought more determinedly in the east than all the other campaigns....yet the Soviets roll over die, and cant counterattack a wet paperbag in the game.

So yet hopefully next patch tones down logistics, greatly needed....and increases losses for both sides. Really tired of seeing Soviet attacks where the Germasn are outnumber 3:1 yes somehow the Germans lose 1 squad to kill like 1,000 Soviets lol. Fix that junk and the game will become more realistic right off....even a failed attack should attrit the defender some is really how the Germans lost the real war.

They won tactically over and over again but each time they took losses and eventually not enough Germans were left and then the line breaks. At a 100:1 exchange rate that will never happen, and well if your exchanging that bad what are you attacking with untrained children with no weapons? Think the Soviets deserve abit more credit than that.


.04 is not going to save you, just resign before we start

smokendave has skills and we are on turn 116 and hes not cring a river.

tm.asp?m=3738744&mpage=6
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chaos45
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by chaos45 »

Germany has acknowledged 3-3.5 million or more KIA/MIA on the eastern front- the reason its vague is because something like 1.3 million personnel went KIA/MIA and OKW fell apart and there are no records on which front those last 1.3 million were lost on but most of them probably the eastern front- final numbers are hard to judge as well because returned POWs were subtracted from the total to my understanding of the statistics and the Soviets claim 3 million or so german POWs of which approx 1 million died in camps....factor in wounded are a multiple of that....also the game includes axis allied losses which were pretty horrendous esp on the poor Romanians historically.....but look at those numbers nothing like the often 10:1 or better yet 100:1 you see in the game.

Skill wise the Germans were often the better up until around 1944/1945 and even in 1943 the Germans were starting to send in more and more lower quality replacements. Bagration is an interesting Study as its one of the few major Soviet offensives were they actually inflicted more irrecoverable losses on the Germans than the Germans inflicted on them. From the knowledge I have read the reasons for this is the firepower advantage was just so massive on the Soviet side that German skill and resolve to hold really didnt matter. The massive amount of actually decently applied Airpower and artillery support overwhelmed most German centers of resistance and effectively routed/destroyed an entire army group.

I can talk the what ifs and actual history all day, end result is the Germans lost for many reasons chief among them was gross political/government incompetence the German war economy was a joke/didnt really even exist until 1943. German manpower use/use of female labor another joke. German use of captured resources and manpower another in general very poor application of policy which helped to defeat themselves.

Having read and listened to much more educated ppl than I lecture on this subject with the German government in power they had their chance of winning the war in the long run was about 0, esp after they didnt force Soviet collapse in 1941. By 1942 the Soviet economy and government had shifted its structure to the point that short of no lend lease it would never collapse or quit the war against Germany. At the height of German and Japanese expansion they actually controlled at least as much/if not more raw materials and total World manpower as the allies yet they lost. Policy is one of the big reasons and a complete failure by both countries to truly utilize everything efficiently that fell under their control. Enslaved populations just dont work as hard for your war effort who would have thunked it...in fact they undermine it and often force you to expend more resources to keep the territory than its probably worth in the long run.

An while Im at it OMG the massive initial mismanagement of the Soviet war effort....how many pointless offensives did Stalin launch that bled out the red army? When if they had just defended.......Alot of what-ifs that the game really doenst allow you to explore. The soviets did more to get their men killed than the Germans at some points in the war. The huge morale drop in 1942...a pure gamism...the real reason the Soviet morale in the South collapsed in 1942 was because they lost a whole front trying to take Kharkov via an offensive and after being butchered trying to attack the German attack caught those same poor sods and ground them under. So no massive failed/stupid/ill-advised front sized attack on Kharkov no reason for a huge dump in Soviet morale. Again pure game. If you wanted it to be realistic the Force morale should be tied to a total force casualty figure and victory point consideration. Because it flows both ways.

Such as your game vs Smokin- would German morale really collapse if your Still at moscow and pumping oil from the south back to Germany and own pretty much all of European Soviet Union....probably not....but the game has set years/events that just auto impact morale...should be more determined by events in the game to be realistic.

Some people mentioned a morale bonus for defending major cities prolly not a bad idea...but then if you lose the city your side should take a morale hit...would make places like leningrad/moscow/stalingrad as politically/motivational important as they were in the actual war.

Ehh babbled long enough [:)]

I have no political views on either side.

An no worries you beat me you beat me, guess I'll find out if I have any skills over the next couple weeks as we play lol.



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Peltonx
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Peltonx »

The Russians were sending women ( I have no issue with this ) old men and young kids into the fight in 42.

Lets stick to the data not old school politics from the 60-80's

The simple facts.

Germany 80 million

Russian 170 million

I am really stupid as you can see by my game play so my math really sucks.

But that's 2 to 1 odds

If I am wrong feel free to point it out

1941
3rd—————551,000——————2,795,000———-5 to 1
4th—————280,000——————1,598,000———-5.7to 1
1942
1st—————280,000——————1,686,000———-6 to 1
2nd—————220,000——————1,395,000———-6.3 to 1
3rd—————383,000——————2,371,000———-6 to 1
4th—————177,000——————1,281,000———-7.2 to 1
1943
1st—————498,000——————1,908,000———3.8 to 1
2nd—————110,000——————444,000———-4 to 1
3rd—————533,000——————2,633,000———-5 to 1
4th—————381,000——————1,939,000———-5 to 1
1944
1st—————423,000——————1,859,000———-4.4 to 1
2nd—————352,000——————1,021,000———-3 to 1
3rd—————879,000——————1,771,000———-2 to 1
4th—————297,000——————1,086,000———-3.6 to 1

Ok them there are the combat ratio's and I don't see many 2-1 odd quarters, do you?

Germany was bleeding Russia to death based on data not politics.

Russia was saved first by American trucks and then 2nd Germany had 20 to 30% of its forces on other fronts.

No England, no America = no Russia.

People bring up the simple facts and they simply will not believe them for some reason and its got nothing to do with the data. They are personally invested in believing something that's simply not true.

I know Germany lost the war, but it was a team effort Russia simply did not have the human bodys to grind Germany down.
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by AndyG1 »

Completely agree with Pelton on this one.
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Flaviusx »

Because Lend Lease was critical to winning Stalingrad.

Oh wait.

Lend Lease is what got the Red Army to Berlin before the Allies. It did not save them. That the Soviets did mostly on their own. Lend Lease was an extremely marginal affair prior to 1943.
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chaos45
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by chaos45 »

yep simple facts but government policy and how they used the manpower change the facts.

No women in the German army = 50% less combat power especially considering they wouldnt even mobilize them to work in the war industry until it was to late.

Political infighting in the Nazis system....study how nazis German worked really look into it its laughable.

Basically each city politician could judge people to be essential and continue to work on civilian/pet projects instead of the war effort and this was completely acceptable until very late in the war. Which meant alot of skilled manpower wasnt effectively used in the war effort.

I agree on raw numbers correct buts its always the details thats behind those numbers that gets interesting ;)

An yes without the USA Germany wins period. Britain and Russian alone couldnt have won....but the USA was involved so thats all she wrote.

Also as I stated you numbers are wrong but hey listen to what you want. Whats your source? just listing numbers on a website is meaningless. As alot of sources are also sad to say wrong as they are only as good as the research that was conducted/what year it was conducted...old stuff never had access to many German/Soviet records since the Soviets captured alot of the actual German records. According to the German government they are higher than what your quoting.

In general the overall established figure is about 3:1 in favor of the Germans vs Soviet casualties. However since they were occupying Europe- massive manpower drain for security/occupation forces, and fighting a second front 2:1 seems to be all the Soviets needed which in all honesty due to inefficient use of manpower the Soviets easily ended up with a higher than 2:1 total manpower edge throughout the war. As they more ruthlessly enlisted and pushed their population in the war than Germany.
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by chaos45 »

Lend lease....did play a part in the Stalingrad time frame. As most of the Soviet planes, vehicles, and tanks that held stop the German drive on Grozny were lend lease as those Soviet units were in effect getting nothing from Russia.
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by MattFL »

ORIGINAL: Pelton


Ok them there are the combat ratio's and I don't see many 2-1 odd quarters, do you?

Germany was bleeding Russia to death based on data not politics.

Russia was saved first by American trucks and then 2nd Germany had 20 to 30% of its forces on other fronts.

No England, no America = no Russia.

People bring up the simple facts and they simply will not believe them for some reason and its got nothing to do with the data. They are personally invested in believing something that's simply not true.

I know Germany lost the war, but it was a team effort Russia simply did not have the human bodys to grind Germany down.
Russia to death based on data not politics. Russia was saved first by American trucks and then 2nd Germany had 20 to 30% of its forces on other fronts. No England, no America = no Russia. People bring up the simple facts and they simply will not believe them for some reason and its got nothing to do with the data. They are personally invested in believing something that's simply not true. I know Germany lost the war, but it was a team effort Russia simply did not have the human bodys to grind Germany down.

I totally disagree with this. Russia was going to win the war without the US and without the UK. In fact, Germany lost the war as early as August 1941. Germany didn't bleed Russia dry, Russia bled Germany dry. Russia could always make up the losses, Germany could not. The Russian army was inexperience to begin with and became more experienced through battle. The Germans started taking casualties and could never replace the level of junior leadership they had at the outset. The fact is, Russia did have the bodies to grind Germany down and the industry to out produce them and that is exactly what happened. Lend lease was basically non existent in 1941 and it was then that Germany had it's only chance at winning the war. After that it was a foregone conclusion with or without a western front. The Western Front shortened the war, it didn't change the inevitable outcome.


As far as the game goes, this was an SHC hot mess (sorry Pitman!). I have no real problem with the GHC Logistics system even if it does allow for greater than historically possible gains. It should, it's a game. About the only issue I have is with Air Supply which is silly....
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Because Lend Lease was critical to winning Stalingrad.

Oh wait.

Lend Lease is what got the Red Army to Berlin before the Allies. It did not save them. That the Soviets did mostly on their own. Lend Lease was an extremely marginal affair prior to 1943.

Again no response to

Germany 80 million

Russian 170 million

and the combat ratios.




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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Flaviusx »

All I know is the Soviet somehow managed to wipe out several armies by the end of the 42-3 winter campaign. Not just 6th army, but pretty much trashed all the Axis minors to boot.

This was before the massive surge of trucks, mind you.

The Soviets had the ability to fight Germany to at least a draw on their own. Absent Lend Lease and an active Second Front maybe they stall and sue for peace out of sheer exhaustion, handing over big chunks of Belorussian and Ukraine.

But the Germans were never going to push them to the Urals or whatever. You can chop the logic and numbers any way you want Pelton, but you cannot make the Stalingrad disaster go away. It was a game changer.
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by MattFL »

Pelton - what is the source of your casualty listings?

You like numbers, read David Stahel's OPeration Barbarossa...
chaos45
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by chaos45 »

Some quick recent year 2000+ numbers from researchers/military records.

Red Army- Conscripted a total of just over 35 Million troops during WW2- 400,000 being involved in partisan operations- thats alot of people attacking your armies rear areas. Estimates of Red Army losses vary widely from a low of 8 million- most likely a lie by the Soviet Government to as high as 20+ million. Most notable historians after much research have concluded the actual figure to be around 15 million or so.

German Army- Total ground forces Heer/SS approx 15 million just under a total of 18 million for all armed services for the entire war- with those numbers most of the newer casualty estimates seem very correct with estimates of 4-5 Million KIA/KIA as POW. and approx 10 million POW being returned between the Western Allies and Russia. Figure the last couple million never entered official POW rolls due to the end of the war and disappeared back into the population.

However the Soviets werent only fighting the Germans to take those 15+ million casualties were they......So we need to Add Axis allied losses in the mix dont we......

From some quick looking it appears Germany's Allies lost approx 1 Million men as well....

Is alot of various research out there but no matter how you evaluate it the general result is an approx 3:1 ratio of irrevocable losses in favor of the Germans and Axis-Allied vs Soviets- thats just the facts on the permanent losses. It could vary easily from 2.5-3.5:1 but its in that ballpark of rough estimate total of 3:1

So given the fact of that rough exchange rate and all the educated scholars best guesses on total losses as the true exact number will never be known-

If the Germans were only Fighting the soviets and no-one else they could eventually win some year- after taking somewhere around 10 Million Casualties or more......Which based on duration of war and casualty rates the Germans and her allies just tackling the Soviet union with no occupation to worry about and no second front would need until 1950 to win the war....thats just carrying out the numbers....long bloody war.

Also since Britian didnt seem to be giving up anytime soon, is no way the entire German army could ever be committed to Russia, and well that was before he invaded...and well you still have to occupy all of europe...damn the Balkans is a mess of partisans esp with the british air supply to them...Army Group E consisted of what half million German troops just to keep the Balkans secured?

So I think its safe to say that since at no point and in no way could the Germans every bring 15 Million men to just fight the Soviets the odds of the Germans ever winning the fight in the real instance of WW2 is about 0%

If by some miracle England surrendered and the rest of Europe decided they liked German occupation then the Germans beat Russia in 1950 or so, otherwise Europe ends up a commie paradise for 50+ years.

For a population of 80 million thats about as total mobilization as you can get without women considering adult women were something like 24 million then you have children to young to carry a weapon and the to old to carry a weapon.

Also I think given the long term casualty rates Germany's political will would cave before the Soviet Unions and most likey have to sue for peace or Hitler is killed/assassinated and the General staff sues for peace. Basically the USA entering the war probably just sped the war up and end result saved millions of people lives.

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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Peltonx »

"if" Germany had another 500,000 women servering ( Russians had about 1 million) that would have helped.
Germany also did not change over to a war time economy until 1943.
Also if Germany committed everything the combat ratio would have been higher, 41,42,43 and be in Urals be then asking for peace.

Its all a great what if for sure.

I like to see a game based on England losing after the fall of France and Germany being able to commit more troops and logistical support.

Be a fun what if.
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by MattFL »

Of course all of the "ifs" can be applied to the Soviet side as well...

If Stalin hadn't purged the military.
If the Soviets had reorganized their army earlier.

When discussing this, you can really only look at the situation at the start of the war. The Germans felt they had enough to attack and win and it was an illusion. Their only hope was that the quick victories brought down the Soviet government and the new government sued for peace. They were never going to win a prolonged war, regardless of the UK/US, regardless on even if they had not been at war with anyone other than the Russians. It was pretty much a fools errand to begin with despite the string of massive early successes. The early successes are a distraction from reality. Very much what you said earlier, people believing what they want to believe and having personal investment colors the thinking. And history proves that.

It would have been difficult for the Germans to do better than they actually did and they still suffered a crushing and total defeat. And they would again if the war was fought 100 times over....
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by charlie0311 »

and..."if" you arm all those hiwis, early on, .. maybe.
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RE: T-15 Moscow Doomed

Post by Callistrid »

Talking about "what if..." is a pointless discussion.
Who wants to play with stronger german/or russian create an alternative scenario, and try to find your opponent, who wish to play that game. Personally I'm more interested on realistic based game.
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