Chuck's IJN ship charts

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Symon
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Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Symon »

Not wanting to step on a nice thread, thought I would make some comments, here. Chuck's stuff shows the confused, dislocated, disturbed and deranged thinking of the IJ Naval Ministry in the war period.

Poor Unryu is the poster child for just how incompetent the IJ Navy Ministry was in the early war period (and the mid war, and late war, and basically, the whole war period in general). Just look at her stats and the the stats of similar US carriers.

IJN Unryu:
Sept 1941 - authorized
August 1942 – laid down
September 1943 – launched
August 1944 – ‘completed’
That’s 24 months from keel to completion. Amagi took 22 months from keel to completion. Katsuragi took 22 months from keel to completion.

USS Independence:
May 1941 – laid down as Cleveland class CL-59.
August 1942 – launched as CVL Independence
January 1943 – commissioned as CVL Independence
That’s 19 months from keel to commission, including a conversion step. The other CVLs were extruded like linguini from a pasta machine; 15 months, avg, from keel to commission.

USS Essex:
April 1941 – laid down
July 1942 – launched
Dec/Jan 1942/43 – commissioned
That’s 21 months from keel to commission. As above, the other CVs were also extruded like linguini from a pasta machine.

The dichotomy, technically, isn’t all that great; 19, 21, 24/22 months isn’t all that different, all things considered. But the US had a frikkin SHIPYARD, juxtaposed to every single building slip in Japan. Think about that one for just a second; one building slip vs one shipyard. Nan farging deska, neh ?? !!!

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by mind_messing »

Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.

The rapidity of Japan's rise caused problems of it's own, as you can see from looking at the status of Japan's industry.

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by wdolson »

I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.

The rapidity of Japan's rise caused problems of it's own, as you can see from looking at the status of Japan's industry.
An immense achievement. But lest we forget, the dust bowl farmers of the midwest weren't your typical yeoman stalwarts either. Tom Joad lived very much like Sushi Hamachi. The difference was when he got out of the ole McAlester Penitentiary, he could scarf an old beat up truck and take his family to California. Wasn't no golden road for poor Sushi.

I think it was Lenin who said it only takes a committed 5% to effect a successful revolution. Japan had that 5% in her daimyo and samurai classes. They were all educated; perhaps not technically, but they knew how to learn and glommed onto the Brits like succubi. That 5% was motivated and dedicated.

Clearly a dichotomy, but one that goes far towards explaining Jiro Horikoshi making kick-ass airplanes and having the prototypes hauled to the test field by ox-cart over dirt roads. As you say, some of this cultural disproportion still exists.

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Symon »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill
Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

Ciao. JWE
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by bigred »

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill
Seems the Chinese are acting the same today.
---bigred---

IJ Production mistakes--
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: wdolson
I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill
ORIGINAL: Symon
Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

Ciao. JWE

Even if the knowledge existed among a few individuals in the country, the population as a whole was essentially living in a medieval. There are people today in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries in the region who are educated in the west and have top flight educations. The quality of education from the top echelons of society drops off a cliff once you go down from the lucky few who got first rate educations.

It's always possible Iraq might be building military equipment to compete toe to toe with the best the west can build within 70 years, or be capable of beating a good but second rate power within 30 years, but I don't see it happening.

It's not all that difficult to educate the best and the brightest in a society. A country moves into the top group of nations when a large enough segment of the population has enough education to support a strong industrial and R&D sector across a fairly wide spectrum of professions and has the capability to educate those people on their own shores. Japan was able to go from a society that was overall fairly low tech with the bulk of the population uneducated about modern technology to capable of competing as a world power in 70 years. Some other Asian countries have also excelled at similar speed, such as South Korea, but they started a bit higher tech because they were occupied by Japan during Japan's renaissance.

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: bigred

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill
Seems the Chinese are acting the same today.

Frighteningly well said!
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by warspite1 »

mind_messing wrote: Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.
wdolson wrote: I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

warspite1

This is a point I have been making repeatedly on these forums (WITP-AE, General Discussion and WIF) and asking the question below in the hope that someone who has an understanding of things can enlighten me. I am really keen to understand this.
Symon wrote: Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

warspite1

So if what you say is true - which I am sure it is - it does not explain the fundamental question. Japan is 70%-80% uninhabitable, it has very few natural resources of its own. How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

I can understand (I think) how the Soviets did it - brutal regime allied to a vast country with huge mineral deposits and resources and similarly China - but Japan? Where does the cash come from to buy the materials to build the railways? What does Japan use to pay for this? How could Japan do something that no other poorer countries seem able to do?

I wish I understood economics better [&:]
Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
mind_messing wrote: Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.
wdolson wrote: I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

warspite1

This is a point I have been making repeatedly on these forums (WITP-AE, General Discussion and WIF) and asking the question below in the hope that someone who has an understanding of things can enlighten me. I am really keen to understand this.
Symon wrote: Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

warspite1

So if what you say is true - which I am sure it is - it does not explain the fundamental question. Japan is 70%-80% uninhabitable, it has very few natural resources of its own. How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

I can understand (I think) how the Soviets did it - brutal regime allied to a vast country with huge mineral deposits and resources and similarly China - but Japan? Where does the cash come from to buy the materials to build the railways? What does Japan use to pay for this? How could Japan do something that no other poorer countries seem able to do?

I wish I understood economics better [&:]

Don't have time now to go into details but Symon is correct.

1. The transformation of Japan began well before the Meiii Restoration. It is an urban myth, perpetuated for political reasons, to attribute the "great leap forward" to it.

2. Even if one argues that a "great leap forward" did occur, the starting date should be considered, at the latest, as 1850 even before Perry's visit. Personally I consider 1820 to be a better candidate date.

3. The great stimulus to the Japanese was the Russian expansion into the Far East of the late C18th. That is what spurred the Bakufu to colonise Sakhalin and expand on Hokkaido.

4. By 1700, Japan had already developed a sophisticated banking system superior to most European countries of the time. Osaka was a great financial clearing house built on the large capital surpluses generated each year from rice.

5. Even before railway links were built, internal Japanese transportation links were good.

6. The Bakufu bureaucracy was well trained and generally not corrupt. It allowed for two way movement of ideas and implementation with minimal internal resistance.

7. Japanese literacy was better than in most European countries.


It is simply not accurate to view mid C19th Japan as a feudal society akin to C15th Europe. In most key indicators it was at a comparable state to that applicable to those European countries which had begun to industrialise between 1800-1850.

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: warspite1
mind_messing wrote: Something that always gets me is that the Meiji Restoration was only in 1870.

In 70 years or so, Japan transformed from a fairly insular nation to became the foremost power in the Western Pacific. Along the way, it built a modern navy, defeated one of the major world powers, built an empire and challenged two other world powers for control of the Pacific.
wdolson wrote: I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

warspite1

This is a point I have been making repeatedly on these forums (WITP-AE, General Discussion and WIF) and asking the question below in the hope that someone who has an understanding of things can enlighten me. I am really keen to understand this.
Symon wrote: Sorry Bill. That’s an urban myth. The Tokugawa Shogunate solidified the classes and put the culture into a period of social stasis. It did not restrict innovation nor the adaptation of foreign ideas. Japan had a robust technology, but it was highly localized and dotted here, there, and everywhere.

They made serious, high quality, steel in job lots, but soon as someone told them about what you could do with big time iron production, they were on it like flies on poop. Iron for railroads? The largest expansion of railroads in the shortest time there ever was. Iron/steel for guns? Ohh Yojimbo like guns. The first class of cadets that went to UK all ranked first in their class. You don’t get that from 15th century medieval pukes.

They was ready and soon as something righteous came along they was willing. They had the tech. All they needed was the kick in the ass to get ‘er done.

Don’t sell them short. They were smart and innovative. Some of it didn’t work out as planned. OK, but that don’t mean they were Medievals playing out of their league.

warspite1

So if what you say is true - which I am sure it is - it does not explain the fundamental question. Japan is 70%-80% uninhabitable, it has very few natural resources of its own. How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

I can understand (I think) how the Soviets did it - brutal regime allied to a vast country with huge mineral deposits and resources and similarly China - but Japan? Where does the cash come from to buy the materials to build the railways? What does Japan use to pay for this? How could Japan do something that no other poorer countries seem able to do?

I wish I understood economics better [&:]

Don't have time now to go into details but Symon is correct.

1. The transformation of Japan began well before the Meiii Restoration. It is an urban myth, perpetuated for political reasons, to attribute the "great leap forward" to it.

2. Even if one argues that a "great leap forward" did occur, the starting date should be considered, at the latest, as 1850 even before Perry's visit. Personally I consider 1820 to be a better candidate date.

3. The great stimulus to the Japanese was the Russian expansion into the Far East of the late C18th. That is what spurred the Bakufu to colonise Sakhalin and expand on Hokkaido.

4. By 1700, Japan had already developed a sophisticated banking system superior to most European countries of the time. Osaka was a great financial clearing house built on the large capital surpluses generated each year from rice.

5. Even before railway links were built, internal Japanese transportation links were good.

6. The Bakufu bureaucracy was well trained and generally not corrupt. It allowed for two way movement of ideas and implementation with minimal internal resistance.

7. Japanese literacy was better than in most European countries.


It is simply not accurate to view mid C19th Japan as a feudal society akin to C15th Europe. In most key indicators it was at a comparable state to that applicable to those European countries which had begun to industrialise between 1800-1850.

Alfred
warspite1

As I said, I do not doubt what Symon wrote, nor what you have written here - and the idea that the Japanese were more advanced than has been portrayed in some writings, does help explain some aspects.

However, what I am really keen to understand is the economics. An efficient banking system is of course crucial and the comment about the rice surpluses generating capital is interesting. I guess where I am struggling is the idea that the Japanese had supposedly cut themselves off from the outside world. If that is true, how do these surpluses arise in 1700?

Equally, the education system of a nation - and the literacy of its people - are fundamental to success (perhaps the Soviet Union and China contradict that?) but at the end of the day, how does that translate into Japan get the resources it needs to build railways let alone 64,000 ton battleships?
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by wdolson »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Don't have time now to go into details but Symon is correct.

1. The transformation of Japan began well before the Meiii Restoration. It is an urban myth, perpetuated for political reasons, to attribute the "great leap forward" to it.

2. Even if one argues that a "great leap forward" did occur, the starting date should be considered, at the latest, as 1850 even before Perry's visit. Personally I consider 1820 to be a better candidate date.

3. The great stimulus to the Japanese was the Russian expansion into the Far East of the late C18th. That is what spurred the Bakufu to colonise Sakhalin and expand on Hokkaido.

4. By 1700, Japan had already developed a sophisticated banking system superior to most European countries of the time. Osaka was a great financial clearing house built on the large capital surpluses generated each year from rice.

5. Even before railway links were built, internal Japanese transportation links were good.

6. The Bakufu bureaucracy was well trained and generally not corrupt. It allowed for two way movement of ideas and implementation with minimal internal resistance.

7. Japanese literacy was better than in most European countries.


It is simply not accurate to view mid C19th Japan as a feudal society akin to C15th Europe. In most key indicators it was at a comparable state to that applicable to those European countries which had begun to industrialise between 1800-1850.

Alfred

I stand corrected.

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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: warspite1


...

As I said, I do not doubt what Symon wrote, nor what you have written here - and the idea that the Japanese were more advanced than has been portrayed in some writings, does help explain some aspects.

However, what I am really keen to understand is the economics. An efficient banking system is of course crucial and the comment about the rice surpluses generating capital is interesting. I guess where I am struggling is the idea that the Japanese had supposedly cut themselves off from the outside world. If that is true, how do these surpluses arise in 1700?

Equally, the education system of a nation - and the literacy of its people - are fundamental to success (perhaps the Soviet Union and China contradict that?) but at the end of the day, how does that translate into Japan get the resources it needs to build railways let alone 64,000 ton battleships?

You will understand that often a lot is written on a subject which is frankly just uninformed. Particularly when there is a significant language barrier. Not too many Anglo-Saxon authors have mastery over the Japanese language and hence most Japanese scholarly works are not fully appreciated in the west, let alone a detailed examination of Japanese sources. Nor is much translated into English.

1. The Bakufu never fully cut off Japan from the world. For political/social reasons, primarily to avoid contact with the revolutionary concept of Christianity, contact was limited to a yearly Dutch fleet arriving in Nagasaki. But the Chinese, who were not viewed as being as dangerous politically/socially were allocated about a hundred shipping licences yearly for trade. Chinese traders maintained a very large community at Nagasaki and carried Japanese products (silk being amongst the most important but also copper) back to China and Manila. From Manila product was then shipped by the Spanish in their yearly Manila to Mexico convoy.

2. A very big translation service was established in Nagasaki. Until well into the C17th Portuguese was the language of commerce with the west; Dutch only fully supplanting it in the second half of the century. Not only did the Dutch ship records need to be surrendered in order to be translated, Dutch captains were interrogated and required to present themselves at Edo. Orders for European books were also placed by the Bakufu.

3. Japanese farming was not subsistence farming. This is one of the main mistakes people make when they think of the economy as being feudal a la C14/15th Europe. Yes, there were periods of food shortages but generally there was a healthy surplus which allowed for capital accumulation which was invested in internal infrastructure. Unlike Europe, there was very little economic destruction resulting from war or social upheaval.

4. The Japanese "currency" system was based on rice. Farm rents were calculated on rice units. The Daimyo paid their large retinues on the basis of rice units. Of course that is somewhat bulky so gold and silver coins were also in circulation but they represented rice units.

5. In the last 16 years of the Bakufu, which is when the great expansion of foreign trade began, Japanese agricultural surpluses were sufficient to cover the necessary foreign exchange to pay for their imports of capital equipment. That equipment went primarily into transportation which in turn reduced the costs of production, and the rapidly expanding textile sector whose exports took over later in the C19th from agriculture in terms of importance.


What happened post 1914 is something for another day. Suffice to say that post 1920, their existing economic model really became dependent on acquiring secured markets in China.

Alfred
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: warspite1


...

As I said, I do not doubt what Symon wrote, nor what you have written here - and the idea that the Japanese were more advanced than has been portrayed in some writings, does help explain some aspects.

However, what I am really keen to understand is the economics. An efficient banking system is of course crucial and the comment about the rice surpluses generating capital is interesting. I guess where I am struggling is the idea that the Japanese had supposedly cut themselves off from the outside world. If that is true, how do these surpluses arise in 1700?

Equally, the education system of a nation - and the literacy of its people - are fundamental to success (perhaps the Soviet Union and China contradict that?) but at the end of the day, how does that translate into Japan get the resources it needs to build railways let alone 64,000 ton battleships?

You will understand that often a lot is written on a subject which is frankly just uninformed. Particularly when there is a significant language barrier. Not too many Anglo-Saxon authors have mastery over the Japanese language and hence most Japanese scholarly works are not fully appreciated in the west, let alone a detailed examination of Japanese sources. Nor is much translated into English.

1. The Bakufu never fully cut off Japan from the world. For political/social reasons, primarily to avoid contact with the revolutionary concept of Christianity, contact was limited to a yearly Dutch fleet arriving in Nagasaki. But the Chinese, who were not viewed as being as dangerous politically/socially were allocated about a hundred shipping licences yearly for trade. Chinese traders maintained a very large community at Nagasaki and carried Japanese products (silk being amongst the most important but also copper) back to China and Manila. From Manila product was then shipped by the Spanish in their yearly Manila to Mexico convoy.

2. A very big translation service was established in Nagasaki. Until well into the C17th Portuguese was the language of commerce with the west; Dutch only fully supplanting it in the second half of the century. Not only did the Dutch ship records need to be surrendered in order to be translated, Dutch captains were interrogated and required to present themselves at Edo. Orders for European books were also placed by the Bakufu.

3. Japanese farming was not subsistence farming. This is one of the main mistakes people make when they think of the economy as being feudal a la C14/15th Europe. Yes, there were periods of food shortages but generally there was a healthy surplus which allowed for capital accumulation which was invested in internal infrastructure. Unlike Europe, there was very little economic destruction resulting from war or social upheaval.

4. The Japanese "currency" system was based on rice. Farm rents were calculated on rice units. The Daimyo paid their large retinues on the basis of rice units. Of course that is somewhat bulky so gold and silver coins were also in circulation but they represented rice units.

5. In the last 16 years of the Bakufu, which is when the great expansion of foreign trade began, Japanese agricultural surpluses were sufficient to cover the necessary foreign exchange to pay for their imports of capital equipment. That equipment went primarily into transportation which in turn reduced the costs of production, and the rapidly expanding textile sector whose exports took over later in the C19th from agriculture in terms of importance.


What happened post 1914 is something for another day. Suffice to say that post 1920, their existing economic model really became dependent on acquiring secured markets in China.

Alfred
warspite1

Wow - that blows a lot of "accepted" understanding out of the water.
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

The short and nasty version is that the Japanese bought machines to make the goods themselves, rather than buying the goods someone else had made.

Japan was fairly unique in Asia in that:

- The social and economic situation was suitable for rapid industrialization
- Major world powers were content to assist the Japanese. Japanese shipbuild was kickstarted by foriegn experts.
- Lack of interference from nations with colonial ambitions. It's worth noting that Japan, along with Thailand, were really the only nations other than China to truely preserve their independence.
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warspite1
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: warspite1
How does Japan go from an inward looking, semi-feudal nation to one that can field the Kido Butai in considerably less than 100 years??

The short and nasty version is that the Japanese bought machines to make the goods themselves, rather than buying the goods someone else had made.

Japan was fairly unique in Asia in that:

- The social and economic situation was suitable for rapid industrialization
- Major world powers were content to assist the Japanese. Japanese shipbuild was kickstarted by foriegn experts.
- Lack of interference from nations with colonial ambitions. It's worth noting that Japan, along with Thailand, were really the only nations other than China to truely preserve their independence.
warspite1

No that is not what I meant. I was after an economic understanding of the situation. We know they ultimately made stuff themselves (from getting Britain to build the first of the Kongos to Japanese shipyards building her three sisters). The point is how?

If the stories of a semi-feudal, cut-off, inward looking (and thus backward economy) were true, then they would not have had the money to buy the machines in the first place - and even if they did - how would they afford the raw materials (which Japan does not have) - and who would they sell to?

Alfred's response suggests that the stories of Japan's status are untrue - and this version is more believable than the widely accepted "truth" - and frankly I do not see how the Japanese could have achieved what they did if not.
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by crsutton »

You have to be careful about literacy. Turn of the century for Japan showed remarkable leaps in literacy to the point that by WWI the Japanese were some of the most avid newspaper readers in the world. However, I don't believe that education for most Japanese got too far beyond what in the US would be considered a good primary school education. Yes, most Japanese could read and write in 1940 but what was greatly missing in Japanese society was a wealth of secondary and university educated people. At a time when US high schools were increasingly teaching technical courses, such as printing, woodworking, agronomy, and auto mechanics, I don't think technical education of this sort was common in Japan. The gap increases even more severely when you consider the university education levels of the respective populations. Japan had good colleges but they were just too few and too elite to ensure the numbers of higher educated people needed sustain a first rate industrial society.

We see this lack of education in our own game. You can take a person with a solid basic education and make a good soldier or sailor out of them but to make a good aircraft engine mechanic out of that material would prove more difficult.
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Symon
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Symon »

I’m really enjoying this conversation. Where it has gone is certainly not OT from my original intent, but just to pull it back a bit to shipbuilding, and in line with what other people have posted, some of Japan’s wartime problems can be linked to their induction policy. There were no deferments for skill or education. A university graduate or a skilled ship fitter would find themselves equally liable to call-up and service as an infantry private, as a farmer’s son.

To save their irreplaceable skilled workers, the Mitsubishi’s, Kawasaki’s, and the like, had to negotiate with the Army for every individual body subject to induction. Even the Navy had to negotiate with the Army with respect to their civilian workers who were called-up. Some of this was alleviated by, in effect, “Navalizing” the shipyard workforces. But that caused problems of its own, as one might well expect.

Japan had a ‘significant enough’ proportion of population that was educated, and ultimately suitable/trainable for technical development, maintenance, and logistics. Unfortunately, liability for military service, and even rank within a service, was cultural and not experiential.

I often wonder what would have transpired if the optical physics students at Tokyo, Nagoya, Tohoku, and Osaka, would have been assigned to radar research programs, rather than being drafted as infantry privates. Likewise, 2/3 of Japan’s airframe, auto body, and engine mechanics were given a pair of boots and a rifle. What if they were assigned to aircraft support units, or the engineers, or even a transportation unit?

Wartime Japan was a poster study in manpower resource allocation and utilization dysfunction. I apologize to my Japanese friends for my bluntness, but you all know exactly what I’m talking about. Yamato’s armor was very strong and well positioned, but so badly welded that it cracked and broke.

The George and Frank were great planes; but the engine manufacturers didn’t have enough mechanics to get the motors tuned right. They never (rarely) ran to spec. The planes were down-rated in spec (Francillon’s data) and went into service where there were even fewer decent mechanics. Some squadrons had smart commanders who glommed onto every decent mechanic they could find, and the planes worked like they were supposed to. Just look at the wild data out there. A couple squadrons often kicked serious butt against first-line Allied aircraft; other squadrons, in the same plane, couldn’t dust a crop.

We tested those planes post-war, and they were as good as Japan’s hot squadrons showed. We used our own maintenance and standard 97 octane wartime gas (none of that super gas crap: another urban myth that really frosts my newts) and got (who’d a frikkin thunk?) exactly what the manufacturers had in mind and exactly what the poop-hot Japanese squadrons did.

Ouch, this is getting long. Wanted to talk about shipyards and ended up talking about airplanes, so let’s leave it here. Bottom line: they was good, they was innovative, they could have turned in a more credible later year performance. Um … um … err … Japan had her problems, and they were based on her cultural imperatives that were indeed left over from the Meiji Restoration. Butt it could have been different.

Ciao. JWE
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Alfred »

Trying to get back on to the Japanese shipbuilding line of thought only, interested readers should read this October 2010 thread.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2592272&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconstruction&#2601939

Many on point posts from Symon (nee JWE).  Particularly rich in content (and charts) posts are:

#15 JWE
#19 Shark7 (provides link to Spanish site with world 1939 individual shipyard capacity
#30 JWE
#33 JWE (discusses what is needed to build new additional shipyard capacity and why no potential new sites existed in the Home Islands)
#35 JWE

There is another relevant October 2010 thread which I will add in an edit.  Both 2010 threads greatly enhance the value of Chuck's IJN ship charts.

A point of amplification.  Unlike some, I do not claim any inside knowledge on Japanese source documents.  I don't read Japanese, but then I don't rely on the internet for my information.  There is therefore available to the general reader good quality English language publications on Japan from quality academics.  It is that it takes some effort to track them down and it is far easier to access generic work which uncritically presents "accepted wisdom" on Japanese economic issues.  Unlike some who post on the forum, JWE/Symon not only has marine design qualifications, he has personally paid for Japanese language source documents to be translated into English.  We are all incredibly fortunate to have JWE/Symon commenting on these issues.  It is a rare resource available to non academic specialists.

Alfred



Edit: As promised, here is the other particularly 2010 germane thread from JWE

tm.asp?m=2599283&mpage=1&key=ship%2Ccon ... n&#2600673

Post #49 should not be overlooked as JWE provides a link to Hiroshi Keikaku's site which is encyclopaedic in it's coverage of Japanese WWII ship construction.
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RE: Chuck's IJN ship charts

Post by Big B »

To take nothing away from Japan's modernization in 100 years, but is it any more noteworthy or remarkable than America's 100 years of progress - say 1799 (when we launched the revolutionary new 44 gun heavy frigate USS Constitution), but still essentially a 17th century colonial-agrarian society with virtually no industry, technology, or even crude roads... to the America of the year 1900 (and a large share of the new technologies were home-grown).

Just saying think about that.

B

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I agree, it was a major accomplishment, probably unparalleled in world history. They went from a feudal society living much like Europeans lived in the 1400s to on par with the west in many areas (not all, but quite a few) in only 70 years. The Meiji Restoration was still a part of living memory when WW II started!

Bill
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