Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

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rainman2015
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Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by rainman2015 »

I know all about the Russian attack the Luftwaffe airbases to death in concept (never gotten that far yet in a game, and am in my first campaign game vs a human).

vs the AI, i never had to worry about the Soviets bombing my forward airbases, but very early, he is bombing my recon airbases and bomber airbases, and hitting the recon bases, which have zero protection (the ones attached to the Armies and Panzer Groups). Yikes, new issue vs a human instead of the AI!

In reading various threads and common sense, i know to group my bomber airbases together with the fighter airbases, stacking them on top of each other if possible, and on top of a HQ if possible for the flak. I know to keep say, the bases of AGN in a tight little group where the fighters can protect the close bomber bases. I know to bump up my fighter intercept to 100% at least, maybe more?

So, questions.

1) How do you effectively protect your recon groups? Do you fly them into other airbases that also contain fighters and disband the recon airbases that are attached to the Armies (since they will be far from the tight groupings of the Army Group airbases and their fighters)? I can't leave them out all alone, they will get killed far away from the fighter groups!

2) Do you fly your fighter groups into the SAME BASES as your bomber groups (i.e. do you MIX the fighter and bomber groups in the same bases), or do you keep the fighters and bombers separate, base wise, and stack the bases on top of each other? I would guess that you just mix them, right? A few fighter groups for every base, and then have a mix of bombers and recon at the base also, so that you can protect both the bombers and recon?

3) How do you group your bases, HQs, fighters groups, bomber groups, recon groups, just anything in general tactic wise to be able to protect them from enemy airbase bombings?

4) I was able to kill almost 5K Soviet planes on the first week's attacks, but find in my play vs the AI that bombing Soviet bases after that is not nearly as good a thing to do. Do you bomb the Soviet bases every chance you get, when the odds are in your favor, after turn 1, as the German, or is that a losing proposition? Note that we do have the house rule of no more than TWO airbase bombings per turn per airbase in place.

Thanks
Randy
rainman2015
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by rainman2015 »

Looking thru the forums with searches, found these threads...

tm.asp?m=2850164&mpage=1&key=airbase%2Cattacks

tm.asp?m=2687464&mpage=1&key=air%2Cbase&#2688884

Would really like to fire up this topic. Especially exactly how you distribute your fighter units, do you mix them with the bombers in the same base, or stack a fighter base on top of a bomber base, or just put the fighter bases very close to the bomber bases (and of course put intercept on 100% or more)???

And i see no way to protect the Army and PanzerGroup HQ recon airbases, since those HQs are always moving so far away from the fighter/bomber base groupings, that those recon planes on those Army/PZ Group bases will get killed by airbase bombings with no fighter support. Only solution i see is to fly the recon planes into the normal Luftwaffe bomber/fighter bases and keep them there, meaning the Army/PZ Group airbases will be empty (disbanded)?

Will fighters NEAR (within a few hexes of) a bomber base intercept an attack on the bomber base every time, or do you need to have the fighters in the bomber base itself, or at least stacked on top of the bomber base in the same hex???

Again, never had these issues vs the computer, it never attacked my forward German bases! Frank, my human opponent is immediately doing so, especially those exposed recon army bases! Time to learn how to protect my airbases with fighters properly...:)

Thanks
Randy
:)

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Peltonx
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by Peltonx »

WitW has same issue there is no work around.

Which is why all us old school peple have house rules, 3 bombing runs per airbase.

morveal has made it better, but Russian AF has unlimited planes so they can spam kill your planes in 41-42 with junk.

part of the problem is tactic planes of Russia and USA/England are rated as good as Stukas and they simply suck compaired to a Stuka.

A good Stuka pilot gets a KO a tank with 1 bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Until 2by3 stops giving allied planes Gandalf's magic powers both WitE and WitW will require house rules.
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Peltonx
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by Peltonx »

A Stuka is basicly a smart bomb, none as in zero of the other planes had the pin point drops a stuka makes with a 500lb bomb.

You have to shot a dozen rockets to hit a large barn and the engine treats them like Stukas, until that BS is fixed the air game is simply broken and again WitW is no different.

Broken as far as spam bombing of air bases, the rest of system works good to great.

But the rest of the system means BS if that's not working in a historical way.

aka

House rules.

I have a long list of them, I did not come up with most other players did smarter and better then me
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rainman2015
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by rainman2015 »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

WitW has same issue there is no work around.

Which is why all us old school peple have house rules, 3 bombing runs per airbase.

morveal has made it better, but Russian AF has unlimited planes so they can spam kill your planes in 41-42 with junk.

part of the problem is tactic planes of Russia and USA/England are rated as good as Stukas and they simply suck compaired to a Stuka.

A good Stuka pilot gets a KO a tank with 1 bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Until 2by3 stops giving allied planes Gandalf's magic powers both WitE and WitW will require house rules.

Yes, i remember the Rudel counter in the old Europa monster game.

Yes, i know the system is somewhat broken still as regards airbase bombings, thus our 'no more than 2 airbase bombings per turn' (hopefully that will fix it?), BUT...

STILL, HOW do you best protect your airbases with fighters interceptors, how do you group your fighters with the other bombers and recon groups, how do you stack your bases and HQs to best protect them (or is within a hex or 3 close enough?), and what the heck do you do with all those recon groups that are in the Army and PanzerGroup airbases (how do you protect them, do you fly those groups into the Luftwaffe bases?)???

I figure the German Master Pelton of all of us would have his best way to deal with the Soviet airbase bombers and maul them as much as possible with fighters/AA. How do you protect your bombers/recon/and even fighters best?

Thanks!
Randy
:)


swkuh
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by swkuh »

If fighters are available at any base and air doctrine allows they will intercept whenever attackers come in range of the fighters along their path.

Flak works when assigned to the HQ in the hex being attacked.

Axis has many recce air units & aircraft and losing some seems not so important. Assign as many recce units as possible in LW bases or Army fields.


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micheljq
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by micheljq »

Maybe also try to put airfields in forest hexes? A lot of them in the north.

Michel.
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by rainman2015 »

ORIGINAL: rrbill

If fighters are available at any base and air doctrine allows they will intercept whenever attackers come in range of the fighters along their path.

Flak works when assigned to the HQ in the hex being attacked.

Axis has many recce air units & aircraft and losing some seems not so important. Assign as many recce units as possible in LW bases or Army fields.



OK, got it on the fighters, so, if i have a fighter base even a few hexes away, they should sortee and intercept enemy bombers bombing a bomber base, or a recon base...

However, if i keep my recon groups assigned to the Army fields, the Army HQs (or PzGroup HQ) are typically far away from the Luftwaffe fighter airbases, so i won't get any fighter interceptors, and they will be dead ducks without fighter protection. Only solution i can see is to fly those recon groups into the Luftwaffe airbases where the fighter are nearby.

What is everyone doing with this particular army/panzergroup recon situation, surely everyone has dealt with this, i haven't until now that i am playing a human (computer never attacked them, now they are getting bombed every turn, and it is the first few turns in the game, this will only get far worse)!

Also, no one has said anything about mixing fighters and bomber groups in the same base, i am starting to do that, isn't that what everyone does? It makes sense, to have your 5 stuka groups also have 2-3 fighter groups in the same base, right? Or do yall keep them separate and either very close together or stacked?

One of the threads i posted above said to put a fighter base stacked with a bomber base and a HQ loaded with extra flak. That sounds smart also.

Randy
:)
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M60A3TTS
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by M60A3TTS »

Use a house rule that says no more than 3 airbase bombing missions total each turn. You're done.
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by Peltonx »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Use a house rule that says no more than 3 airbase bombing missions total each turn. You're done.

mybee once morveals done getting the combat engine ect ect 100% he can take a look at tweaking this issue-which is easly fixed with the house rule.
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rainman2015
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by rainman2015 »

I already have the house rule in place of no more than 2 airbase bombings per turn.

I am looking for more in game tactics/strategy for how to best defend your bases from air bombings for those 2 airbase bombings per turn. HOW do you best defend your bases, what are good strategies as regards where you place your fighters (in the same airbase as the bombers?, in the same hex but a different airbase?, 1-2 hexes away?), do you stack with an air HQ for extra flak?, how do you protect your pure recon bases?, etc...

I have searched the forums and there is very little on strategy/tactics on how to best defend your bases, and nothing i can find about what people are doing with their pure recon bases (i.e. the army and panzer group bases, which are invariably far away from the luftwaffe fighter bases and their protection).

I like the putting them in light woods hex, maybe urban also?

My thoughts are:

Put in light woods if possible
Mix at least 1-2 fighter groups with every bomber base
OR
At least stack a fighter base on top of or at worst within a hex of each bomber base
Maybe perfect would be a stack of a fighter base, bomber base, and HQ in a light woods hex with extra Flak at the HQ

As to recon groups, maybe fly them into the bomber bases so that they are protected by the fighters and not hung out in the open far away from the fighters with their Army HQ?

Randy
:)
charlie0311
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by charlie0311 »

Hi,

Air groups assigned to the recon bases can't be moved to other "regular" abs.

I suggest you keep them with or next to Pz xxx hq and use them to maximize your air resupply.

As a practical matter, you can't bomb what you can't find, and sov recon is not anywhere near as good as axis. Sov recon has many fewer recon ac in '41, and flying recon early in the game is "costly".

Many players allow for a house rule for no bombing of hq (hq alone) maybe you could suggest to your fellow players that no bombing of hq alone or stacked with ab.

In any case not a major issue, that's why so few posts, most guys will have all they can handle trying to keep track of the advancing Pzs

Others more knowledgeable may please join and correct or modify my comments
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by Peltonx »

.04

has a fix so probably will not need house rules after that
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rainman2015
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by rainman2015 »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

.04

has a fix so probably will not need house rules after that

We have the house rule in place for airbase bombings per turn already. It is the other questions on general tactics as to how to protect your airbases i am interested in. And also what do you do with all the recon air groups?

Everyone keeps answering the number of airbase bombings, but we have that covered already. :)

HOW do you best protect your bombers and/or recon air groups from however many airbase bombings per turn? What tactics / strategy do you use? Where do you place your fighter groups/fighter bases in relation to the bomber/recon groups/bases? Do you always try and put them into a light woods or city hex? Do you always try and stack with a HQ that is loaded to the gills with AA SUs?

AND what do you do with the RECON GROUPS attached to the ARMY/PZ GROUP HQs (which invariably are FAR away from the Luftwaffe fighter groupings)?

I can't find anything hardly on this on the forums, so just kinda winging it as i play my first two PBEM games with humans attacking my airbases.

Thanks
Randy
:)
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by HMSWarspite »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

WitW has same issue there is no work around.

Which is why all us old school peple have house rules, 3 bombing runs per airbase.

morveal has made it better, but Russian AF has unlimited planes so they can spam kill your planes in 41-42 with junk.

part of the problem is tactic planes of Russia and USA/England are rated as good as Stukas and they simply suck compaired to a Stuka.

A good Stuka pilot gets a KO a tank with 1 bomb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Rudel

Until 2by3 stops giving allied planes Gandalf's magic powers both WitE and WitW will require house rules.

I don't wish to question your expertise, but have you got sources for Stukas being wildly more effective than other GA aircraft? Oh, and there are views that all pilots of GA sorties (Rudel included) overestimate the effectiveness of their attacks. Even if Stukas are more accurate, they are not more effective because of their inability to survive in any form of contested airspace (in RL). Many things worried the WA in 1944, but Stukas were not one of them...

Oh, and why do you say WitW has the same issues as WitE on airfield attacks? Free basing means that fighters can always be based to defend recce/bombers. You can use AS directives across aproach paths to bases, you can rely on the automatic air defence. You can put flak directly on airbases (if they are in Towns). I thus don't get your point. If you don't use the tools to prevent it, yes you can get massacred, but in my experience I love the opponent trying to attack airfields with GA - the flak traps wear him down so fast his eyes water...
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by loki100 »

ORIGINAL: rainman2015

ORIGINAL: Pelton

.04

has a fix so probably will not need house rules after that

We have the house rule in place for airbase bombings per turn already. It is the other questions on general tactics as to how to protect your airbases i am interested in. And also what do you do with all the recon air groups?

Everyone keeps answering the number of airbase bombings, but we have that covered already. :)

HOW do you best protect your bombers and/or recon air groups from however many airbase bombings per turn? What tactics / strategy do you use? Where do you place your fighter groups/fighter bases in relation to the bomber/recon groups/bases? Do you always try and put them into a light woods or city hex? Do you always try and stack with a HQ that is loaded to the gills with AA SUs?

AND what do you do with the RECON GROUPS attached to the ARMY/PZ GROUP HQs (which invariably are FAR away from the Luftwaffe fighter groupings)?

I can't find anything hardly on this on the forums, so just kinda winging it as i play my first two PBEM games with humans attacking my airbases.

Thanks
Randy
:)

From a Soviet perspective, I hit those bases for a few reasons. First an aggressive German will be trying to scout as deep behind my lines as they can. Second, the other reason to push the bases so far forward is to ease air re-supply. So I'll go for them with some impunity partly *because I can* (and you need all the small morale boosts you can manage in the early stages) and partly because by late 42 both sides can be running short of recon planes.

For the Germans these seem like a limitless freebie in early game but as Soviet fighters improve you can run into trouble. In my game vs SigUp, by late 42 we were both missing critical build ups as we had to carefully manage our remaining recon assets. This helps the Soviets a lot as there are plenty of spot with poor terrain where you can hide a lot of troops before launching a major offensive.

In the context of 1941, if I force the Germans to put fighters near those advanced bases that helps me. Those fighters are drawing off fuel and supplies that are needed for the spearheads (and the whole logic to pushing up the airbases is to ease re-supply). I'd suggest the solution is to sometimes do this - if you catch a flight of unescorted SB-2s not many will make it back to base - but not all the time (keeps your opponent worried and its hard to escort longer range bombing in the early stages as you need to keep the Soviet airbases back in case of a breakthrough). Other trick is to assign more AA to the relevant command - I think most German players tend to put it all in the front line in any case. Of course, again, its a trade off.

In effect its one of those nice rock-paper-scissors sub-games to the campaign. Both sides have the means to inflict a lot of damage - or make their opponent expend assets protecting against a non-existent threat.
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RE: Protecting Bombers/Recon Aircraft From Airbase Bombings

Post by rainman2015 »

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: rainman2015

ORIGINAL: Pelton

.04

has a fix so probably will not need house rules after that

We have the house rule in place for airbase bombings per turn already. It is the other questions on general tactics as to how to protect your airbases i am interested in. And also what do you do with all the recon air groups?

Everyone keeps answering the number of airbase bombings, but we have that covered already. :)

HOW do you best protect your bombers and/or recon air groups from however many airbase bombings per turn? What tactics / strategy do you use? Where do you place your fighter groups/fighter bases in relation to the bomber/recon groups/bases? Do you always try and put them into a light woods or city hex? Do you always try and stack with a HQ that is loaded to the gills with AA SUs?

AND what do you do with the RECON GROUPS attached to the ARMY/PZ GROUP HQs (which invariably are FAR away from the Luftwaffe fighter groupings)?

I can't find anything hardly on this on the forums, so just kinda winging it as i play my first two PBEM games with humans attacking my airbases.

Thanks
Randy
:)

From a Soviet perspective, I hit those bases for a few reasons. First an aggressive German will be trying to scout as deep behind my lines as they can. Second, the other reason to push the bases so far forward is to ease air re-supply. So I'll go for them with some impunity partly *because I can* (and you need all the small morale boosts you can manage in the early stages) and partly because by late 42 both sides can be running short of recon planes.

For the Germans these seem like a limitless freebie in early game but as Soviet fighters improve you can run into trouble. In my game vs SigUp, by late 42 we were both missing critical build ups as we had to carefully manage our remaining recon assets. This helps the Soviets a lot as there are plenty of spot with poor terrain where you can hide a lot of troops before launching a major offensive.

In the context of 1941, if I force the Germans to put fighters near those advanced bases that helps me. Those fighters are drawing off fuel and supplies that are needed for the spearheads (and the whole logic to pushing up the airbases is to ease re-supply). I'd suggest the solution is to sometimes do this - if you catch a flight of unescorted SB-2s not many will make it back to base - but not all the time (keeps your opponent worried and its hard to escort longer range bombing in the early stages as you need to keep the Soviet airbases back in case of a breakthrough). Other trick is to assign more AA to the relevant command - I think most German players tend to put it all in the front line in any case. Of course, again, its a trade off.

In effect its one of those nice rock-paper-scissors sub-games to the campaign. Both sides have the means to inflict a lot of damage - or make their opponent expend assets protecting against a non-existent threat.

Thanks Loki. Interesting stuff. Yeah, early as the Germans, you can fly recon unescorted to your heart's content and only lose a couple planes per turn, i fly hundreds of recons i find early on per turn with little ill effects. But, had never had a recon base air bombed until i played a human! :) Now, i am finding i keep them close to fighters, or further back, or just use the longer ranged recons more often (where i can keep them close to the fighers)

No one in this thread really answered the question about how to organize your fighter groups and fighter bases and bomber bases, but i am sticking some fighter groups in with my Stuka bases, and then always keeping a fighter base either stacked or right next to any bomber bases, and also stacking the air HQ with the bases when possible for the AA. Hoping that that is enough to get the interceptors i need in case of any airfield bombings.

Then, i am sticking my longer ranged at least recons in with those Luftwaffe airbase concentrations, either stacked or right next to fighters. Still not really sure what to do with the Army/Pzgroup recon airbases and the short range recons, but i am trying to keep them back close to the fighters too when possible.

Randy
:)
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