Calling all Frenchmen!

[warspite1]

I know there is at least one knowledgeable Frenchman on this forum and am asking for some assistance.

I have previously purchased French Battleships 1922-1956 (Jordan and Dumas) and French Cruisers 1922-1956 (Jordan and Moulin). These books certainly look the business and I have enjoyed reading the sections I have so far.

However, I have recently started a day to day diary of the Naval War in the General Discussion thread and, in so doing, I am looking far more closely at the French Navy than I have had cause to previously. As a result I have found some things in these books that do not correspond with other sources e.g.- the naming of the Mediterranean Fleet as Forces De La Haute Mer in 1939, as well as some annoying typos and missing text. I was also baffled by the book NOT referring to the cruiser Pluton as La Tour d'Auvergne as most other sources suggest her name was changed in early 1939. However, the authors state that this was not the case and the name change did not actually happen. Not sure who to believe!

So question. How reliable and accurate are these books as sources of reference for the French Navy of WWII?

As ever, many thanks for any assistance.

[geofflambert]

From a Welshman, Forces de La Haute Mer sounds like the High Seas Fleet of the Deutschmen. My Conway's "All the World's Fighting Ships" confirms the name change. She was unarmoured and the name change was made when she became a training cruiser. Auvergne has volcanic soil and is suitable for growing grapes. Part of it was once part of Languedoc.

If you would like me to scan the entry and send it to you I will. It's not much more than 4" on an 8x11.

[geofflambert]

You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.

[Gilbert]

the naming of the Mediterranean Fleet as Forces De La Haute Mer in 1939, as well as some annoying typos and missing text. I was also baffled by the book NOT referring to the cruiser Pluton as La Tour d'Auvergne as most other sources suggest her name was changed in early 1939. However, the authors state that this was not the case and the name change did not actually happen. Not sure who to believe!

Hello Warspite 1!

I don't own these books, therefore cannot tell you how accurate they are, but I own copies of various books written in French on the same subjects by the same authors and they know for sure what they are talking about!

- "Les Forces de Haute Mer" were indeed implemented in 1939 indeed but refer not only to the Mediterranean Fleet based at Toulon but also to the Atlantic Fleet based at Brest.

- According to "Les croiseurs Jeanne d'Arc et Pluton" by J. Guiglini and A. Moreau, the Pluton was indeed scheduled to be renamed La Tour D'auvergne from 1 Jun '40 under Navy's Department instruction No. 609-EMG-3 dated 13 May '39 and confirmed change under internal order 675-EMG-3 dated 1 Jun '39. However, as Pluton blew up and sank at Casablanca, Morroco 13 Sep '39, that scheduled name change could not happen.

HTH

Gilbert

[geofflambert]

I'm going to quote Conway's, it's brief.

"This unarmoured minelaying cruiser was authorized under the 1925 programme. She served most of the later stages of her career as a gunnery training ship at Toulon, but early in 1939 she was converted into an officer cadet training cruiser and renamed La Tour d'Auvergne, by which name she is better known. She attained 56,000shp = 30.6kts with a maximum of 31.6kts. She was lost due to an accidental mine explosion at Casablanca, and the wreck was condemned on 24.2.40. In April 1940 there was a short-lived proposal to build a light cruiser to replace her."

This is me, she could carry 290 mines (which ain't shabby) and had 4 5.5"/40, 4 3"/60 AA plus 2 37mm AA and 3 batteries of 4 13.2mm AA.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Gilbert

the naming of the Mediterranean Fleet as Forces De La Haute Mer in 1939, as well as some annoying typos and missing text. I was also baffled by the book NOT referring to the cruiser Pluton as La Tour d'Auvergne as most other sources suggest her name was changed in early 1939. However, the authors state that this was not the case and the name change did not actually happen. Not sure who to believe!

Hello Warspite 1!

I don't own these books, therefore cannot tell you how accurate they are, but I own copies of various books written in French on the same subjects by the same authors and they know for sure what they are talking about!

- "Les Forces de Haute Mer" were indeed implemented in 1939 indeed but refer not only to the Mediterranean Fleet based at Toulon but also to the Atlantic Fleet based at Brest.

- According to "Les croiseurs Jeanne d'Arc et Pluton" by J. Guiglini and A. Moreau, the Pluton was indeed scheduled to be renamed La Tour D'auvergne from 1 Jun '40 under Navy's Department instruction No. 609-EMG-3 dated 13 May '39 and confirmed change under internal order 675-EMG-3 dated 1 Jun '39. However, as Pluton blew up and sank at Casablanca, Morroco 13 Sep '39, that scheduled name change could not happen.

HTH

Gilbert

warspite1

Yes I have Conways - and this is one of the sources that made me concerned about which version was correct.

Gilbert - glad to see that these authors have your seal of approval - I have French Destroyers 1922-1956 on order for June.

The way the fleets are described in the Cruisers book is:

Forces navales independantes:

These are split into:

Force de Raid (Brest) and
Force de haute mer (Toulon)

No mention of the Atlantic Fleet (of which I understood the Force de Raid was a part?) or Mediterranean Fleet. Then there are the Maritime Regions and the theatre commands and ..... Too much for my small brain to keep up with [:)]

If you get a chance to look at that thread in the GD forum from time to time please let me know if I'm talking total sloblocks about matters French!! Thanks [;)]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.

We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz

[Gilbert]

The way the fleets are described in the Cruisers book is:

Forces navales independantes:

These are split into:

Force de Raid (Brest) and
Force de haute mer (Toulon)

Well, there is some confusion there. The "Force de Raid" was a special TF created to search and destroy the German "pocket" battleships and was indeed an independant Force part of the Forces de haute mer. But the latter comprised Squadrons either based in the Atlantic and in the Med.

Trying to make it simple:

In '39, the Forces Navales de haute mer are splitted in five maritime regions with Cherbourg, Brest and Lorient (Atlantic)and Toulon and Bizerte (Med).

Note that the French colonies were organized in independant naval bases and are not part of that organisation.

Gilbert

PS-What is the GD forum please?

[warspite1]

GD = General Discussion Forum.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

You've probably already seen the Conway's reference; it says she was a mine-laying cruiser and (in my opinion) may have not been of sufficient interest to your French sources. Did you know that "French Fries" are actually "Belgian Fries"? We didn't need to rename them "Freedom Fries" after all.

We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz

I'm going to try that! I'm sick of ketchup and sold my shares of Heinz. Never got into vinegar.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

GD = General Discussion Forum.

Do they let anyone in there who's not a General? [&:]

[Gilbert]

GD = General Discussion Forum.

Thanks!

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

We called them Pomme Frites in Germany and they are DELUXE with mayonaisse (instead of catsup)..Pronounced Pome Freetz

I'm going to try creamy horseradish sauce like Arby's "horsey" sauce. By the way, do you happen to know if Arby's macht fries?

[geofflambert]

Yeah, yeah, boo hiss. The galactic center of horseradish production is across the river from me at Collinsville, IL. I noticed how you spelled ketchup; Collinsville also has this giant Brook's Catsup sign. Anyone who wants it can take it off of their hands, really and actually. They want to get rid of it.

[geofflambert]

Here's an actual case of Catsup. By the way there's no tomatoes like Illinois tomatoes.

[Zorch]

Dear Mr. Gorn - have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE

[Footslogger]

If I may, Geoflambert won the Black Hole award for defeating Kirk!

[wdolson]

This thread morphed quick!

Bill

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Zorch

Dear Mr. Gorn - have you seen this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hnBp7x2QAE

Are you kidding? I did all that work and didn't make scale. My union rep said I have plenty of scales.

[AW1Steve]

As a person of "French ancestry" I must state that I'm offended. Actually I'm not , but it seems like the thing to say. [:D]