European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System???

[wdolson]

The European conflict was primarily a continental war with secondary naval campaigns. The Battle of the Atlantic was critical for the UK's survival, but it was fought with forces that are a sideshow in AE (subs and escorts). WitP/AE is primarily an air/naval game with secondary land campaigns. Burma was a major land campaign, but it was very slow and drawn out. It was fought with much smaller forces than the battles in the Pacific.

The AE game engine does not handle continental land combat very well. It does OK with islands, but gets wonky the larger the territory.

Any game that covers any part of Europe would have to address and rewrite the land combat engine. The hex scale would also need to be much smaller, something on the order of 5-10 miles per hex. The smaller hexes will also require some reworking of naval combat because larger gun ships will be able to shoot into the next hex.

Bill

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

The European conflict was primarily a continental war with secondary naval campaigns. The Battle of the Atlantic was critical for the UK's survival, but it was fought with forces that are a sideshow in AE (subs and escorts). WitP/AE is primarily an air/naval game with secondary land campaigns. Burma was a major land campaign, but it was very slow and drawn out. It was fought with much smaller forces than the battles in the Pacific.

The AE game engine does not handle continental land combat very well. It does OK with islands, but gets wonky the larger the territory.

Any game that covers any part of Europe would have to address and rewrite the land combat engine. The hex scale would also need to be much smaller, something on the order of 5-10 miles per hex. The smaller hexes will also require some reworking of naval combat because larger gun ships will be able to shoot into the next hex.

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks

[Numdydar]

Since it is your development money funding it, you can get whatever you want [:D]

However, before you start pulling out your checkbook, there are a number of legal hurdles you have to go through. First you need to Matrix to greenlight the effort. You also need to get the legal entity Henderson Field to sign off as well. Depending on HF's agreement with Matrix/2by3, you may have to get permission from 2by3 as well.

Most likely to get all these various groups to allow this to go forward, a high level design document/business plan would need to be developed as all three entities have a vested interest to make sure you are not going to take their efforts and make a poc game. So putting your intentions down into a written document would go a long way to assure them that no one's reputation is going be ruined by your efforts.

Once you get agreement from all involved (in writing) that you have permission to develop a new version of WitP and use the existing database and source code as a basis, THEN you can start the process of getting a team together, etc. Of course as part of your design document you can include names of people that agreed to help along with what their role on the team will be. This can show you have support from the community. Even better if you can get some of the original AE team as part of you new group.

Just some suggestions to do before money is committed [:)]

[Numdydar]

Dup post

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: claystone

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks

There is something sort of magic about the WitP games (from Uncommon Valor through AE) that draws people in like few other games do. What you mention above is some of those factors that a new development would want to preserve. It's the same sort of calculus that movie studios do trying to figure out why one movie becomes a classic everyone talks about for decades and others are forgettable fluff. What are the elements that make a game a hit in the gaming world?

BTW, the original engine for AE did come from 2X3, Gary Grigsby's company. We heavily modified it, but the bones are still his.

Bill

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

ORIGINAL: claystone

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the clearing things up.

I understand that the system would need to be tuned to handle a heavy land unit game and less air/naval. I do understand where everyone is coming from.

Now what sold me on witp/ae when i saw it first on youtube, and keep in mind i really don't like playing WWII Pacfic theaters, was the system and interface (ui). For me to pay $100 for a game theater i really don't like tells you that you guys did a great job with what you created in witp/ae.

1.I loved how i can click on a unit and all their information came on on the "card".

2. I loved that a land unit took 3 turns to cross a hex.

3. I loved how units can be attached to each other, ala planes to ships and creating TF.

4. I love the whole "UI" for the game.

5. I love how the you have to send your TF to supply your men/bases.

So can a new witp/II keep with what i mention above into the new game and of course more? I'm not saying the system has to be exact but i like to try and keep with what grab me to this game. That is the only reason why i wouldn't mind spending my money on making a new game, but if what i'm asking is out of the question then its not a game i like to fund.

Your game was original compare to Gary Grigsby or John tiller(sp).

Thanks

There is something sort of magic about the WitP games (from Uncommon Valor through AE) that draws people in like few other games do. What you mention above is some of those factors that a new development would want to preserve. It's the same sort of calculus that movie studios do trying to figure out why one movie becomes a classic everyone talks about for decades and others are forgettable fluff. What are the elements that make a game a hit in the gaming world?

BTW, the original engine for AE did come from 2X3, Gary Grigsby's company. We heavily modified it, but the bones are still his.

Bill

Bill,

Can you put me in touch with all the powers at be to make this happen since you've worked on AE?

Thanks

[wdolson]

I sent an e-mail through Matrix so we can discuss anything further offline.

Bill

[Kull]

This is very interesting, and it would be nice to see something come of it. But I would caution against trying to do too much. A WitP AE for Europe will need to address a myriad of issues, and there are so many, it would likely kill the project before it got too far.

Better to focus on something small, such as a single theatre in which you could keep the WitP AE things that apply, and slowly develop the new ones at a smaller scale. Even this might be too large, but a Mediterranean-centered map at the intended smaller scale could retain many of the WitP AE features (supply to North Africa, Naval Task forces, Air patrols and combat over water, Convoys, etc) while offering smaller areas to focus on developing the new models for land combat (North African Desert Campaigns, Seaborne Invasions of islands and landmasses, hard slogging in Italy/Greece, etc). Cut the map off a few hexes West of Gibraltar, no further North than a few hexes into Southern France/Northern Italy, East to Crete/Suez (possibly further, but really, why?), and south just far enough to recreate the actual North African campaign.

The lessons learned could eventually be extrapolated to the vast expanses of the entire European continent. But don't try to bite that off at the start: "There be dragons"

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I sent an e-mail through Matrix so we can discuss anything further offline.

Bill

Sent you my email.

Btw, it would be nice to work with a map like this area but modified a little

https://boardgamegeek.com/image/575302/ ... size=large

Take from (West to East) France to Moscow and (North to South) Denmark or England to top of North Africa

Now the map that is part of Witp/ae, how much of that map would cover the map i just attached?

Bill, i'll speak to you by email for now on.

Thanks

[Numdydar]

You know you can easily do these map calculations yourself using google [:D]

Distance between Breast France to Moscow - 2,093 miles
Distance between Oslo Norway to Tripoli, Libya - 2,293 miles

Lets say you wanted a square map covering this area. So use 2.25K miles for the sides.

Using AE scale of 45 miles/hex gives you a 50 x 50 hex grid

On the AE map this area in Germany would fit in an area from the Northern top of the map to Colombo, Ceylon to Inching, China, and back to the Northern part of the map. Maybe around 1/10 of the total AE map size. Again, the scale between the ETO and PTO is too great for an AE game scale to work in the ETO.

If you really want an AE type system in the ETO, you HAVE to make the game scale a LOT smaller which would mean that the map of the PTO would be massively bigger.

Now if you did reduce the map scale of the game so the ETO is a much better game, you then could have the AE experience in the ETO. But until the ETO game scale is addressed, I cannot imagine wanting to play an ETO game using the AE system as is. Wayyy too many other ways to spend my time having fun [:)]

[chemkid]

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[Kull]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Now if you did reduce the map scale of the game so the ETO is a much better game, you then could have the AE experience in the ETO. But until the ETO game scale is addressed, I cannot imagine wanting to play an ETO game using the AE system as is. Wayyy too many other ways to spend my time having fun [:)]

I haven't heard anybody say it's good idea to use the AE map scale in the ETO. The question is, how many things would require a total re-write if you drop the new map scale down into the "5-10" mile range as Bill mentioned earlier? He mentions naval gunnery, and probably the same would apply to certain land artillery pieces - those would now have combat effects in neighboring hexes. But issues with range (say for aircraft) *seem* like a simple conversion. For example, an aircraft with a 4 hex range in AE would have 16 in AE-ETO.

Make no mistake - there's no implication that anything here is "easy" or "simple", but I am curious as to how much of the underlying engine would have to be re-written purely as a result of a change in scale. If the answer is, "a lot", then this is going to be a huge undertaking.

[chemkid]

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[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: Kull
I haven't heard anybody say it's good idea to use the AE map scale in the ETO. The question is, how many things would require a total re-write if you drop the new map scale down into the "5-10" mile range as Bill mentioned earlier? He mentions naval gunnery, and probably the same would apply to certain land artillery pieces - those would now have combat effects in neighboring hexes. But issues with range (say for aircraft) *seem* like a simple conversion. For example, an aircraft with a 4 hex range in AE would have 16 in AE-ETO.

I think the main problem would be the way the map scale interacts with the turn/phase length. With 5 or 10 miles hexes, it becomes possible for neighbouring units to reinforce a battle, and combat cannot be a 'once per day, once per hex' affair anymore. Land movement changes too: as most units can move several hexes per day, you need rules for interception/reaction (similar to what AE has for naval units). I suspect the detection system changes a lot, too. And air missions can't probably "warp in" like they do now : just appearing over target, and all combat being resolved there.

In other words, I think there is a limit on the map scale for one day turns, and 12 hour phases, to be meaningful. Maybe the system can scale down, from 40 NM to 30 mile hexes, but 10 miles or less means a lot of changes.

Francois

[Dili]

A Mediterranean scenario can be done at 20nm, i was with Blizzard and Cohimbra doing it but then there were doubts about how it would affect the whole combat system so it was stopped.

The unit supply system would need a revamp also if we want to recreate the fuel situation: units(air and land) have to consume fuel otherwise there would be no need to send fuel to North Africa.

The good thing about Mediterranean is that a game done there will work almost everywhere. The bad thing is that it is an undertaken never done in wargames - it is really a tri-service game : needs well developed air,naval, land system. Well four since it also needs spec ops(2 battleships, 1 heavy cruiser, more than 200 aircrafts sunk/destroyed by special forces.)

Commercially have the potential for a lot of countries and even some extensions like Spain, Turkey, East Africa.

[darbycmcd]

You know, if you were open to moding/extending/updating existing frameworks, I wish someone would look at Combined Arms. It would need some work, it is 10 years old, and probably need to be upped in scale a notch or two, but it is WEGO. I think it could be extended to be a really interesting Euro Theater-wide game with some TLC.....

[Numdydar]

Well if the people involved in ToAW could ever get their act together, that is a great system that at least could get the air and land part of a campaign going [:)]

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Well if the people involved in ToAW could ever get their act together, that is a great system that at least could get the air and land part of a campaign going [:)]

Agree..fun game