Last Days of the Third Reich; recap of game v Meklore

Post descriptions of your brilliant victories and unfortunate defeats here.

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Q-Ball
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by Q-Ball »

It's 4/28/45, and leaving some screenshots in case this is the last turn......The Russians are close to Berlin, so game may be over soon

Here is the furthest penetration. The last turn had 75,000 Germans killed, and the Allies are fully over the Rhine. Still, even now I have plenty of troops to at least slow them down. I can pull more units from the South. At this point, it also helps that I don't have to worry too much about units getting cut-off; I've been very careful until now to try to prevent that

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Q-Ball
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by Q-Ball »

4/28/15: EF Box

Here is the latest EF Box. I was ahead vs. historical until just the last turn. The Russians at this point are 5 hexes from Berlin.

For some reason, they did take Vienna, the new capital of the People's Republic of Austria, or "PRA" to you and I.

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Q-Ball
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by Q-Ball »

And here is the latest loss screen. As I said before, I think the Germans are just too strong in the last war; I don't know how an Allied player can get to Berlin vs. a decent German one.



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JocMeister
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by JocMeister »

The Allies best tactic is IMO to do as little ground combat as possible. Get the hexes required to avoid the silly "no beachhead" penalties and just sit tight. This can easily get you a minor victory and is quite probably the only way for the allies to win. For it to work though you must do an optimal bombing campaign in 43. A good target would be 14-20 bombing VPs per turn.

I just landed in Normandie in my game vs Meklore. For the sake of fun I decided to "fight the war" though but in the process I will lose the game. Kind of a text book example of how a VP system shouldn´t work.
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Joel Billings
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by Joel Billings »

I don't want to hijack this AAR thread, but seeing this post re the VP system, I'd very much like to see some info/saves/analysis supporting the view that the best thing to do is to sit tight in Normandy and run out the clock. Is this when you are playing with the EF on and/or off? I'm assuming with it off, because if it's off, then the German player could theoretically send units east and if the system works, the game would likely end late costing the Allies a lot of points. We've heard previous complaints about the VP system and Pavel has added the optional rule mechanism re the Beachhead penalty, but I haven't seen an analysis and detailed info explaining how/why the system doesn't work. Although I've said we aren't looking to come up with a completely new system, there are plenty of variables that can be adjusted if we know where the problems are. If you've got some specific info, I'd appreciate it if you could either start a new thread about this, or email me at 2by3@2by3games.com with the info. Thanks.
All understanding comes after the fact.
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marion61
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by marion61 »

This game is with the EF box on. We started this game back in Dec. or Jan.

I'll start with a broad statement first, then I'll try and be more particular. Firstly, I'm not a bad player, but I have only won two games as the WA's and they were both from resignation. Every other WA game I've played has been a loss. On the reverse side of that, I've played a lot of axis games and have never lost one.

At the moment I have had 3 games make it to at least Oct. 44, and I'm WA, and I will eventually lose these games from VP's. One I already lost, and the other two I will lose also.

I honestly don't think the no-beach head penalty was a problem. Not having it does allow you more freedom of where to land and when, but I've never been hit with a no-beach head penalty.

Thru all these games I have noticed that the allies have to execute their invasions and offensives almost without flaw, every turn, or risk falling behind. Once the allies start to fall behind, it's usually not going to be a win, and it's so very easy to get bogged down by the axis forces.

I don't think the VP system needs a revamping, but maybe add a category for axis casualties? It wouldn't have to be a low number, but I do think that the axis should take some vp's hits from casualties. I'm not sure this would be a solution or not, but if you could take the campaign game vp system and the short scenario system and married them into one system, that would be ideal. The problem with the short scenario is that it has no bombing vp's for strategic bombing except in an air only campaign. The campaign vp system really needs some axis casualty vp's, and maybe a one time bonus for taking large cities or capitols and points for what cities are held at the end of the game.

I know the objective is to capture Berlin, but with the amount and quality of both forces, it's hard to get into Germany in time to capture Berlin before the Russians. Since the WA didn't actually capture Berlin, maybe the importance of it is too high? Getting points for the cities held at the games end would decrease Berlin's importance in having the allies player pushing for it. This way you would also see some alternate idea's pop up since player's wouldn't be hell bent always trying for Berlin, and this would also keep the axis player guessing what you might be up to.

Also there could be bonus vp's for taking capitol cities, on the turn you take them? Basically the allies need a little help along the road. It's frustrating playing these other games out, knowing I'm going to lose.

I've found that you really can't afford to skip taking Italy, as you need the city points from it thru 43 and beyond, and that invading in the north in 43 is doable, but it's not the way to winning.

One other small item I've noticed is that allied forces can almost never achieve a significant break out, or even surround units. The low quality of the allied forces keeps them from being able to exploit any break thru, but as the axis player I never have a problem with being able to exploit break thru's on the allies. The high morale of the axis units allows them to roll thru combat delays and allied units. So basically if your in Brittany, you have to slog all the way across France, with little to no hope of cutting off axis retreats. Perhaps the allies are a bit weak?

That's all I got.
decourcy2
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by decourcy2 »

Joel, part of the problem is the, what I will call myth in my opinion, that the Allies were completely helpless on the ground. Obviously, the Germans were better but in this game now the Germans have X defense on any division sitting for a full turn.

I am going to reference a battle in Sicily, back when the Americans were very incompetent, by the US 1st division. In the capture of Troina in the first week of August the US 1st division, with a little late help from the 39th iinfantry regiment, took about 600 casualties fighting the entire 15th Pzg division. Neither side had much corps unit support that I can tell. The US did get some air support, but there are questions whether the air support killed more Americans than Germans (no Quesada yet).

The German division withdrew after a week of fighting taking 1,600 casualties. In rough terrain in this game.
That will never, ever happen in this game engine which gives huge bonuses to defense and makes the American units in particular pathetic in a fight.

Yes, I know it is common 'wisdom' that the Allies sucked but I think maybe if you read battle descriptions it was not as bad as we are seeing.

Possibly some of the problem is the binary nature of the combat results, you either push the enemy back or you fail. The fails take huge casualties, but even the wins take heavy casualties. Because of the ease of using multiple hexes to load up attacks you have to give defenders a high defense score otherwise every battle is a win, but this seems to create huge Allied attacker casualties.

Read a book about the campaign on Sicily and you will see the Allied casualties were actually quite low. I have been experimenting with both sides there and I cannot keep Allied casualties as low as they were historically.

And Joel, none of this is in any way antagonistic. I love that you have made this game, and I love that you are letting me beta it.
I think the way I write comes off as a blunt attack sometimes so I wanted to make that clear.

And Meklore, you are losing Alexandria. As soon as my Stargard offensive gets going. Any day now.
JocMeister
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

I don't want to hijack this AAR thread, but seeing this post re the VP system, I'd very much like to see some info/saves/analysis supporting the view that the best thing to do is to sit tight in Normandy and run out the clock. Is this when you are playing with the EF on and/or off? I'm assuming with it off, because if it's off, then the German player could theoretically send units east and if the system works, the game would likely end late costing the Allies a lot of points. We've heard previous complaints about the VP system and Pavel has added the optional rule mechanism re the Beachhead penalty, but I haven't seen an analysis and detailed info explaining how/why the system doesn't work. Although I've said we aren't looking to come up with a completely new system, there are plenty of variables that can be adjusted if we know where the problems are. If you've got some specific info, I'd appreciate it if you could either start a new thread about this, or email me at 2by3@2by3games.com with the info. Thanks.

Joel, I´ve probably made more then 50 post outlining in detail why the VP system doesn´t work. They are in my old AARs and elsewhere here on the WitW forum in various posts regarding the VP system. I can´t really explain it any clearer then what I was trying to do for the first 3 months after release.

I´ve given up on both the AAR, the game itself and this forum though. But I´ll try to summon enough motivation to post something once the game is over to provide some data.
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marion61
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by marion61 »

We'll await your arrival with open arms!!![8D] Pay no attention to those men with weapons, they are your escort.[;)]
decourcy2
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by decourcy2 »

You are Brits; what is the worst you can do to me? Throw tea? Look at me disapprovingly while I drive over your troops?
marion61
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by marion61 »

I have a NZ division too, and they could probably beat the entire 5th Panzer Army with one arm tied behind their backs! You'd be so overwhealmed by our hospitality that you'd just end up surrendering and we'd have to start over.[8D]
marion61
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by marion61 »

Well the results are in...Qball fought me to a draw...-123 vp's at the May 19, 1945 turn. The furthest I penetrated was to Muenster. That's all I got for the moment.
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Q-Ball
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by Q-Ball »

Meklore played a very good game, particularly in the air. I think the main takeaway in this one is that the Germans are too powerful on the ground. I made a pile of mistakes early, this being my first PBEM, that I wouldn't make in the 2nd go around as Germany.

The Allies need help on the ground; not sure how to accomplish that, but I do think the balance issue isn't just a VP issue.....or maybe it isn't at all, but rather a GROUND issue.

As you can see, Meklore did get a breakthrough this turn in the north, but even here, I had reserves, and wasn't that aggressive about pulling from the south. I stopped disbanding AA units (which I think is a huge Manpower source for Germany, and a balance issue), but even then, I think the Wehrmacht is a good 6 turns at this point from collapse.

Final Date: 5/26/45, and the score was -123. There was a -300 penalty because the Russians were 3 turns late to Berlin.



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Q-Ball
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RE: Last Days of March

Post by Q-Ball »

Here is the Loss and OOB screen. Didn't bother showing the production screen, because aside from Men and AFVs, the Reich is not running out of anything. Fuel, Supplies, Oil, Armaments, you name it.....we have plenty.

It would be nice if bombing Germany would cause the Germans to run out of things

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