Un coordinated attacks - a very bad one.

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Cavalry Corp
Posts: 3637
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2003 5:28 pm
Location: Sampford Spiney Devon UK

Un coordinated attacks - a very bad one.

Post by Cavalry Corp »

This is the raid - 2 day turns March 42 I am allies PBEM RA 7.9 Over 150 Jap bombers lost according to the losses screen afterward
If you look at some of the messages you will see sweeps have got mixed up with the raids?
My opponent has confirmed there are over 200 planes in the TF, BUT what affects the chance of an uncoordinated raid the ship commanders of the planes or the admiral???

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Mar 15, 42
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Morning Air attack on Colombo , at 29,48

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 93 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 39 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 19
B5N2 Kate x 111

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 16
Hurricane IIa Trop x 16
Hurricane IIb Trop x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 35 destroyed, 15 damaged
B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane I Trop: 1 destroyed
Hurricane IIa Trop: 1 destroyed
Hurricane IIb Trop: 2 destroyed

Allied Ships
CVL Hermes, Bomb hits 1
BB Resolution, Bomb hits 1
BB Revenge, Bomb hits 1

Port hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
City Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet
20 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
13 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
8 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
3 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
11 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
10 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 13000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIa Trop (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 3 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 24 minutes
8 planes vectored on to bombers
No.30 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 11 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 13000 and 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 29 minutes
13 planes vectored on to bombers
No.232 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 9 on standby, 3 scrambling)
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 10000 and 18000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 28 minutes
9 planes vectored on to bombers


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Morning Air attack on TF, near Trincomalee at 32,48

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid spotted at 17 NM, estimated altitude 17,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 6 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 22

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAP Cap Varella, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Cagou, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.30 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
8 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 85 minutes



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Morning Air attack on TF, near Colombo at 29,48

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 27 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 21

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIa Trop x 10
Hurricane IIb Trop x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 6 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAP Jalakrishna
xAP Turing Mary

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIa Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
10 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 57 minutes
No.243 Sqn RAF Det with Hurricane IIb Trop (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead
No.232 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
4 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 59 minutes

Training flight from No.243 Sqn RAF Det has been caught up in attack


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Morning Air attack on TF, near Trincomalee at 31,47

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 33 NM, estimated altitude 19,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CM Abdiel, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
10 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Trincomalee at 33,53

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 78 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 51 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 53

Allied aircraft
Fulmar II x 11
Swordfish I x 12

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
Fulmar II: 2 destroyed
Swordfish I: 9 destroyed

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Soryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
Hiryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
Ryujo-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
Shoho-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
Nisshin-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers



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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Trincomalee at 32,48

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 13 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 4 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 29

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed, 13 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
xAP Rangitata, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Cagou, Bomb hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Cap Padaran, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
KV Aster, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires
xAK Polynesien, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Capitaine Illiaquer, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
2 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.30 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(4 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 10000.
Raid is overhead

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAP Rangitata
Massive explosion on xAK Cagou
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Cagou
Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAK Capitaine Illiaquer


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Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Trincomalee at 31,47

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 60 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 22 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged

Allied Ships
CM Abdiel

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb


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Morning Air attack on Colombo , at 29,48

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 31 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 16

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 4
Hurricane IIa Trop x 8
Hurricane IIb Trop x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane I Trop: 1 destroyed
Hurricane IIa Trop: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 20000 feet

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIa Trop (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 23000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
No.30 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (1 airborne, 3 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 13000.
Raid is overhead
No.232 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 21000 and 24000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 21 minutes





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Morning Air attack on TF, near Colombo at 29,48

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D3A1 Val x 5

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 2
Hurricane IIa Trop x 2
Hurricane IIb Trop x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
No.232 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 11000 and 23000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
No.30 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 55 minutes
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIa Trop (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes


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Afternoon Air attack on Colombo , at 29,48

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid detected at 115 NM, estimated altitude 14,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 49 minutes

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 18

Allied aircraft
Hurricane I Trop x 3
Hurricane IIa Trop x 6
Hurricane IIb Trop x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 8 destroyed

No Allied losses

CAP engaged:
No.17 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIa Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 1 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 12000 and 17000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 23 minutes
No.30 Sqn RAF with Hurricane I Trop (0 airborne, 2 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 38 minutes
No.232 Sqn RAF with Hurricane IIb Trop (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes
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Barb
Posts: 2503
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 7:17 am
Location: Bratislava, Slovakia

RE: Un coordinated attacks - a very bad one.

Post by Barb »

Ouch! Just 35 (16+19) fighters flying offensive sweeps, no escorts?
Target DL, Target priority, Weather, Altitudes assigned, missions assigned, HQ roll (TF leaders), unit rolls (unit leaders)... ?
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BattleMoose
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 12:16 am

RE: Un coordinated attacks - a very bad one.

Post by BattleMoose »

There are usually always a few straggling attacks after the main one. Out of an available 200+ planes you had 130 in the first strike. The real problem here seems to be far too few fighters assigned to escort.
User avatar
Lowpe
Posts: 24063
Joined: Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:25 pm

RE: Un coordinated attacks - a very bad one.

Post by Lowpe »

If you look at the fight over the the Japanese carriers not a single fighter squadron scrambled their planes, they where either all up in the air or on standby leading me to think he had a a 100% CAP setting on a lot of fighters. One sentai only had two planes in it.

Interesting.
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LoBaron
Posts: 4775
Joined: Sun Jan 26, 2003 8:23 pm
Location: Vienna, Austria

RE: Un coordinated attacks - a very bad one.

Post by LoBaron »

On a first glance:
ORIGINAL: cavalry

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters between 7000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
4 planes vectored on to bombers
Soryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000 , scrambling fighters between 0 and 20000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 42 minutes
2 planes vectored on to bombers
Hiryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters between 8000 and 9000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 8 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers
Ryujo-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 8 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters between 5000 and 13000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
3 planes vectored on to bombers
Shoho-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 13 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 8000 , scrambling fighters between 6000 and 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
5 planes vectored on to bombers
Nisshin-1 with A6M2 Zero (0 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000 , scrambling fighters to 7000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes
6 planes vectored on to bombers


So thats 50% of the fighter escorts with severely reduced chances to coordinate with the strike. This combined with attacks on several different targets (29,48; 32,48; 31,47 taken from your post, more if the CRs are incomplete) hints at overstretching without sufficient number of potential escorts.

As for the rest, there is really not enough information to do anything else than attempt shots into the blue.
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spence
Posts: 5419
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2003 6:56 am
Location: Vancouver, Washington

RE: Un coordinated attacks - a very bad one.

Post by spence »

Perhaps expectations exceed historical prescendent by several magnitudes of amplitude. In the final analysis the Japanese had absolutely no more experience than anyone else in so far as fighting with a carrier TF. They lost more pilots than they could afford in every single engagement that they fought (other than their surprise attack at Pearl Harbor). They knew how to coordinate a strike package solely to the extent that they encountered almost no resistance - not exactly all that formidable unless you were a Chinese civiiian.
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