Axis OOB/TOE in 1.08

[Gabriel B.]

simply open the 1942 -1945 scenario and look at the german orbat .

with the historical losses and replacements the german orbat should look the same.

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: morvael

Mehring, yes repair after move was introduced, but the radical change in numbers is mostly from including assault guns, tank destroyers, armored cars and sp weapons in that number. German variant of T-34 could be introduced, it's up to Denniss.

Quite aside from the enormous unofficial use of captured equipment the game currently can't represent, what I've found is-

Axis set up four commands for Barbarossa, to make use of captured tanks, one each for AGs N, C and S and one in Bucharest for the Romanians. They were expecting thousands of T26 and BT series types and overestimated both their ability to recover them and their usefulness. They were neither expecting nor prepared for KV and T-34 types.


However, they went to considerable lengths to make use of the obsolete types. Through 1941 many hundreds were recovered, sent to workshops and tested. Crews were to some extent trained in the use of these tanks, though the inadequacy of their training was a comment in at least one report. Initial breakdowns were fixed with cannibalised parts from other vehicles, which would justify a fairly low capture rate. By late 1941 and after significant evaluation, repair shops were producing improved systems, such as transmissions and piston rings but this could do no more than alleviate deficiencies of fundamentally bad designs.

Official use of these types was limited mostly to security units. A great many were also converted for use as ammunition carriers and prime movers.

Undoubtedly, a logistics system for these vehicles existed, capable of recovery, repair, significant modification and subsequent repair.

The Germans didn't distinguish between various models and I've suggested suffixes below, to differentiate them for game purposes. I'd suggest they be introduced into the Axis production system as-

T26A - Pz 737a(r)
T26B - Pz 737b(r)
BT 5 - Pz 742-5(r)
BT 7 - Pz 742-7(r)
BT 7A - Pz 742-7A(r)

If capture rates can be reduced for these types, I'd suggest giving them reliability rates comparable to Russian versions as shortage of spares was ofset by improvements. There's some rationale for adding a portion of these captured tanks to the vehicle pool.

T60s were mostly converted to prime movers and ammunition carriers, as were many T70s though the latter was also used extensively in infantry divisions in a support role. As above, a portion of these might be added to the Axis vehicle pool.

The T34s captured in summer 1941 were generally put into immediate use by their new owners, some being sent to Germany for testing. It was not until late in the year that some were sent to rear areas for modification. One source states May 1942 as the date these became available and featured commanders cupola, radio, German optics and an unspecified "later," German manufactured ammunition, as improvements. One can safely assume that, as with T26 and BT types the previous year, systems were up and running through 1942, to repair damaged T34s in Axis use and return them to their combat units.

I'd suggest that T34 M40 and M41 be used as currently, given the game doesn't allow use until October. In addition, from October a number could be converted from the pool each turn into-

T34 M40 - Pz 747-40(r)
T34 M41 - Pz 747-41(r)

These might be considered to have a superior AP round to the Russian version.

Similarly, the T34 M42 can be used as is. A significant number of T34 M42 were captured in spring 1943 and upgraded in a Kharkov factory with the same modifications as previous models as well as Schuerzen.

T34 M42 - Pz 747-42(r)

These should definitely have superior AP rounds to the Russian version.

In spring/summer 1944, three T34 were converted to an AA role with the turret removed and replaced with a quad 20mm.

Official use of the KV1 series only began in mid 1942. Prior to that it was used extensively, 1. Pz Div had an entire KV1 company. Captured KV1s were often converted for use in a recovery role in Tiger units, their use in the combat role apparently being virtually prohibited in 1943.

Estimates vary, but around 12 KV1s of unspecified type got the "Riga Arsenal" treatment and along with the modifications made to T34s above, were rearmed with a German 75mm L43 cannon.

I would suggest making all the above versions repairable, perhaps with slightly less reliability values to reflect the shortage of parts. The various armoured cars were also used extensively but I haven't found any evidence of repair facilities.

Clearly, in mid to late war the number of vehicles captured by the Axis declined greatly, but never stopped altogether. It's unlikely that such effort went to support the use of later Russian tanks simply because insufficient numbers were captured to make the investment worthwhile.

[Denniss]

Some candidates for captured stuff getting german models:
T-34 M41/M42, maybe /85?
76mm ZIS AT/Art
later 45mm ATG ?
152mm M-10 howitzer
152mm ML-20 Gun-howitzer

[uw06670]

Don't forget to factor into the captured equipment extra attrition due to friendly fire

I concur that these should get special treatment in game, based on historical aspect. The numbers and years such would be happening would be based I think on how many the Germans are capturing rather than historical dates. For example, while maybe they didn't convert/utilize as much in late war this is because they were retreating and not capturing as much. But in game, if German player goes on major late war offensive and captures a bunch, then they should get the treatment as well.

Also, was looking at pictures of captured Sherman tanks (from both Eastern and Western fronts) put into service by Germans and happen to see a large number (company?) of SU-85 type vehicles wearing the cross as well.

[Mehring]

According to one source use of T34 85 was confirmed at various times with HG Pz 3+5 SS PZ, 7 PZ, 252 Inf, special unit Jaguar and a "respectable number" in 4 SS Pz Korps in 45, so 50+ is plausible but anyone's guess. I suspect elite SS units would not employ equipment lacking logistical support, even late war, but I'm not sure if they ever modified these tanks or refurbished them so not sure if removing captured penalties is appropriate.

Haven't got onto ordnance yet. Captured F22 76mm was refurbished as AT gun and many were mounted on Pz II and 38(t) chassis IIRC maybe also Renaults, can check. Can't recall the source right now but I remember something about Romanians manufacturing munitions for 45mm ATG, both versions. Think they were used in vast numbers.

Another source I can't recall states that at some point something like 43-46% of entire German arty park (17k tubes?) was captured, more than half of the captured element being French, so 155s should feature heavily I should think.

[Mehring]

ORIGINAL: uw06670

Don't forget to factor into the captured equipment extra attrition due to friendly fire

Those used in front line tended to be very clearly marked so where los was clear enough to distinguish more than a silhouette the greater danger was the oversized crosses the Russians could aim for.

ORIGINAL: uw06670 For example, while maybe they didn't convert/utilize as much in late war this is because they were retreating and not capturing as much. But in game, if German player goes on major late war offensive and captures a bunch, then they should get the treatment as well.

Good point, maybe a threshold could be set for refurbishment of a vehicle type?

ORIGINAL: uw06670 Also, was looking at pictures of captured Sherman tanks (from both Eastern and Western fronts) put into service by Germans and happen to see a large number (company?) of SU-85 type vehicles wearing the cross as well.

Apparently a lot of infantry divisions had assault gun companies on their books but never took delivery of any German vehicles, so yes, SU 85, 122, etc were used extensively. Trouble is, WitE can't accommodate this unofficial use, which was always greater than official use, as the slots aren't available or something. So I'm trying to at least get the vehicles for which behind the lines support existed some kind of in game representation.

[morvael]

Select 5 with biggest difference from original, most affected by German upgrades. 2nd of importance are numbers that will be captured.

ORIGINAL: Denniss

Some candidates for captured stuff getting german models:
T-34 M41/M42, maybe /85?
76mm ZIS AT/Art
later 45mm ATG ?
152mm M-10 howitzer
152mm ML-20 Gun-howitzer

[uw06670]

Apparently a lot of infantry divisions had assault gun companies on their books but never took delivery of any German vehicles, so yes, SU 85, 122, etc were used extensively. Trouble is, WitE can't accommodate this unofficial use, which was always greater than official use, as the slots aren't available or something. So I'm trying to at least get the vehicles for which behind the lines support existed some kind of in game representation.

And the game already makes use of that class of captured equipment. I have no idea if those assault guns had any special logistics and repair support.

[Mehring]

On grounds of biggest difference my vote would be,

T34 M40 and M41 to Pz 747-40(r) and 747-41(r) or as the difference is marginal, combine the two into Pz 747(r)

KV1 to Pz 755(r) but end conversions when Tiger comes online.

T34 M42 to Pz 747L(r) L for late model

76mm F22 to PaK 36(r)

T34 to FlaK Pz 747(r)

[musashi64]

ORIGINAL: Mehring

According to one source use of T34 85 was confirmed at various times with HG Pz 3+5 SS PZ, 7 PZ, 252 Inf, special unit Jaguar and a "respectable number" in 4 SS Pz Korps in 45, so 50+ is plausible but anyone's guess. I suspect elite SS units would not employ equipment lacking logistical support, even late war, but I'm not sure if they ever modified these tanks or refurbished them so not sure if removing captured penalties is appropriate.

Haven't got onto ordnance yet. Captured F22 76mm was refurbished as AT gun and many were mounted on Pz II and 38(t) chassis IIRC maybe also Renaults, can check. Can't recall the source right now but I remember something about Romanians manufacturing munitions for 45mm ATG, both versions. Think they were used in vast numbers.

Another source I can't recall states that at some point something like 43-46% of entire German arty park (17k tubes?) was captured, more than half of the captured element being French, so 155s should feature heavily I should think.

From my sources too, I can confirm that almost half of the entire German arty park was composed by captured arty.
I have the same news about that the Rumanian used 45 ATG to equip some tanks/SP guns.
I will be more detailed about it as fast as I can.

Kind Regards

Roberto

[Denniss]

We already have german versions:
76mm PaK36(r) from F-22 ATG (although soviet side has both F-22 and F-22USV merged into one)
F-22USV as Art
122mm A-19 field gun
early 45mm ATG
85mm AAA rebored to 88mm to become 88mm Flak
120mm mortar to german version (germans copied them anyway)
Some more I have not found during a quick search

The 76mm ZIS may follow, they were most likely used in unmodified form unless captured ammo was used up, then sent to modifications centers to be rebored for german ammo.

[Mehring]

Are these versions produced regardless of the quantity of captured material? That appeared to be a feature of much F22 based production.

[Denniss]

Just conversion from captured soviet stocks - transformation into a german model

[morvael]

We can even have production and conversion for some items at the same time [:)] where conversion is cheaper than production, but both enabled (for example GE 120mm mortars could use this).
Conversion will always require stocks of captured equipment to exist in given country before it will be performed.

The only limitation of the system is we can't have one item created from more than 1 other item (so no way to "take hull of this old tank and mount this captured gun on it").

[Mehring]

Nice. But will the PaK 36(r) armed Marder II and PzJg 38(t) be manufactured regardless of how many F22 are captured? If so, and also given that a large number were transferred out of theatre, if there is a mechanism to do this, it might be an idea to reduce the % of captured F22 entering the pool/being refurbished.

[morvael]

Since they were on new hulls produced in Axis factories, they can be tied to captured guns and it will be good solution. Worse case is when existing equipment (old tanks removed from line units) would have to be converted using captured equipment. That can't be modeled.

[Mehring]

That sounds like it could work really well. I think the Flamingos, or some of them, might have ended up mounting PaK 36(r) but if my games are anything to go by most are withdrawn intact anyway.

Another vehicle which may be included in WitW/ WiE is the T26 mounting the French 75. Only a dozen or so were built and all were used in Italy. There were so many of both hull and gun it hardly matters what ingredients are used.

[Denniss]

All surviving Flammpanzer II were converted to Marder II with captured guns. This is modelled via production (those never used anywhere except training + those sent back with units) and via conversion from any Flammpanzer II left in the East.

[Gabriel B.]

ORIGINAL: morvael


Gabriel B. is this a scenario data issue? Please notify Denniss and add some rationale.

Time for a more lenghty reply .


The axis orbat by 1942 summer is 2,97 milion men + 100,000 in the pool.
sheer infantry strenght is 1,35 million men roughly the same level as in 1941 despite having 32 more infantry divisions .


in 1942 the axis is getting 24 full strenght infantry divisions (400,000 men )
in adition to normal replacement isued to forces in the field .

82-raised 1939
88-raised 1939
205-raised 1940
208 -raised 1939
211- raised 1939


336- raised in 1940 as static division for ocupation duty in france
305- raised in 1940 as static division for ocupation duty in france .
323 - raised in 1940 as static division for ocupation duty in france .
336- raised in 1940 as static division for ocupation duty in france .
340- - raised in 1940 as static division for ocupation duty in france .
342- raised in 1940 as static division for ocupation duty in france/jugoslavia.

371 - raised in 1942 in belgium
370 -raised in 1942 in france
376-raised in 1942 in france .
377-raised in 1942 in france .
383-raised in 1942 in germany.
384 -raised in 1942 in germany.
385--raised in 1942 in germany.
387-raised in 1942 in germany.
389-raised in 1942 in germany.

328-raised in 1942 (14 days-walkirie)
329-raised in 1942 (14 days-walkirie)
330-raised in 1942 (14 days-walkirie)
331-raised in 1942 (14 days-walkirie)

the ones raised in 1939 and 1940 should arive at full strenght as it is simply a matter of tranfering forces from west to east.

however the last 4 were raised specificly for service on the eastern front and I my question is
from where does the manpower comes from ?

[Denniss]

Walküre Divs were prepared for emergency mobilization. Much of their equipment was stored and personnell was taken from training and reserve units.