Bob Flemin' and Orm. A World....AARseIII

[Orm]

Reinforcements:

Germany:
FTR and Stuka in Cologne
JU-88 and MECH in Dusseldorf
SUB in Kiel

Italy:
2 x BB in La Spezia

Japan:
ARM and MECH in Sasebo
GARR and INF in Fukuoka
SUB and Kashima in Fukuoka
MIL

CW:
FTR2
LND3
CVP1
MIL (SA)
CV
BB
2 x CA
CL
Shattered INF

France:
3 x MIL
FTR2
INF
GARR

USA:
NAV2

USA remove one CVP1

Com China:
GARR

USSR:
2 x INF
LND4
2 x FTR2

----

USA give two resources to France.

Germany give two resources to Italy.

----

Axis wins the initiative (die roll 9 versus 1)

[Orm]

The abysmal weather continues.


Picture from May/Jun 40 Impulse #1 (Axis) - Weather

[warspite1]

Very funny Ormster - you almost had me there. Can you post the real weather chart now? [:)]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Very funny Ormster - you almost had me there. Can you post the real weather chart now? [:)]

I am afraid that it is no joke. [:(]

Edit: Maybe it is a small comfort that you are guaranteed fine weather in France for the next impulse?

[warspite1]

May/Jun 1940
Impulse: 1

Just speechless.....

All three powers choose a naval. I load up TRS and AMPH for onward transmission to China, while 3 SUB take up residence in Truk.

The Italians spread themselves around the Mediterranean, but mostly in the Italian Coast (where two TRS pick up INF) and Eastern Med.

But the best bit is reserved for the Germans. The fleet sails into the North Sea with SUB support. Not only do the Germans throw a 10 but the CW a 1....

What do the CW want to do?

[Orm]

What do the CW want to do?

CW use the surprise points to avoid combat.

[Jagdtiger14]

It seems the Germans are late vs the French in this AAR as well...

[CLee]

Could anyone tell me how to make my avatar one of the games ships like you guys have? I'm new.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

It seems the Germans are late vs the French in this AAR as well...

warspite1

Have you seen the weather?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: CLee

Could anyone tell me how to make my avatar one of the games ships like you guys have? I'm new.

warspite1

Hello CLee and welcome. Try putting a request in this thread. Froonp I think reads this from time to time and normally comes up with the goodies [&o]

Just confirm what you are looking for and I am sure he will do the rest.

tm.asp?m=3466131&mpage=13&#3814860

[Jagdtiger14]

Warspite: Not to sound too publically critical...so please take this as very constructive criticism (In fact you might have some come to your defense): But yes, I did see the weather, and you had awesome dream-like weather for the Axis in S/O'39. This is a classic case example for why "Fall Gelb" is the way to go. Weather is never a guarantee, but if you give yourself the opportunity with "Fall Gelb" and get this kind of weather, you can really take advantage of it.

What I like to do: I usually go about 75-80% west (all ARM, Mech), all arty, and air west as well...except possibly the 2 point arty if I get it and any 2 point GS bomber if I get it (maybe the naval Stuka) goes to Poland. I have Leeb and the weakest INF (not GAR) vs Poland. My objective are the resources in the south of Poland, the naval over-run, and hemming in Lodz/Warsaw. I take down Poland slowly.

With the weather you had, you potentially could have had Netherlands, Denmark, and all of Belgium by the end of S/O'39.

[warspite1]

Firstly I don't mind if you want to be critical - let's face it, a lot of my game play (certainly in games 1 and 2) deserve criticism.

It is also nice that people take trouble to follow the AAR's and offer advice, tips etc.

The idea of taking Poland slowly is not something I have tried, although personally do not like it as leaving the situation open in the East is "untidy" - and if the weather turns really bad can actually be more than a slight inconvenience. As you will see from AARse IV I was one impulse away from holding out into the next turn with Poland. But this "Poland lite" strategy is a tactic that I will no doubt explore at some point in the future however.

I would not necessarily agree with the weather comment. I am not sure that two lots of Rain was dream-like (the weather then turned Fine for the last two impulses - but by this time my units had been disorganised. Yes, even with Rain, if the dice throws are high enough, damage can be done to the enemy and disorganisation may not be a feature, but obviously the chances of that are reduced in bad weather. So it is, like everything in MWIF, not a certain-win strategy and my first two German throws were a 6 (not bad) but then a 3 - combined with Rain, I think a good chance of disorganisation.

So with the strategy you propose, and the weather that I have had subsequently - Snow, Snow, Blizzard, Snow, Rain, Snow, Rain - I do not see much of a difference. Yes there is a chance I would have Belgium too, but also that Poland will have not inconsiderable forces still intact too - and these need guarding against even if one is taking time to attack. On that basis, and with the weather subsequently I would not be surprised if Poland was still holding out!

When I saw Orm do a similar set-up in AARse IV (although not as extreme) I had in mind to keep the Polish aircraft in play - although bottled it - and that proved to be the wrong tactic by me as he too then got some pretty rubbish weather. That tactic here would have meant the Germans needing to keep air units in the East. The fact that German forces are so light against Poland also means that the Germans there must be very choosy about their attacks. With a lack of cover, losses (and even disorganisation) can be real issues with a number of Polish forces still available to move.

So is your alternate strategy better than mine? Yes it can be, but like everything in MWIF, not a guarantee. In MWIF very little is guaranteed, which is why replayability is so high and we love the game so much.

[warspite1]

May/Jun 1940
Impulse: 1

The Germans re-base their floatplane to La Spezia.

The Japanese re-base two fighters to counter the Chinese fighter in the south.

And that brings that impulse to a close....

[Jagdtiger14]

Warspite: "When I saw Orm do a 'similar' set up in AARse IV (although not as extreme)..."

No, in my opinion Orm's set up is not at all similar. The critical point is to be able to take advantage of good weather (IF you can get it) in S/O on the western front. Orm had way too much set up vs Poland to reflect what I'm talking about.

I wouldn't worry about the Pol's using their air.

You say "two lots of rain". I'm referring to S/O'39 specifically. I noticed in the Northern Temp(after the first mandatory fair weather impulses): rain, fair, fair (did I read that wrong?). The Rain is good enough to take out Netherlands. The two fair impulses give you the Dyle plus something else in Belgium. The something else could be attacks on the French line in Belgium making the line untenable, and you probably didn't even need to use an o-chit.

I'm not discounting your bad rolls...which (under my scenario) would have happened vs Poland the first impulse anyway, and after that, rolls for Netherlands plus Poland. As was pointed out to me by one of my WiF buds here in face to face WiF board game: "its not the value of the rolls, but their timing".

I used to be like you concerning Poland and being tidy when I first started playing WiF until I was shocked one game where I just barely took Paris at the end of S/O'40 (and using both o-chits on the way to do it)...I was looking at France being alive into 1941...which was something I could not accept. I vowed to never allow that to happen again, and I took into account the possibility of fair weather in S/O'39 as lost opportunity...AND, more importantly taking into account the most valuable asset in WiF: TIME.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Warspite: "When I saw Orm do a 'similar' set up in AARse IV (although not as extreme)..."

No, in my opinion Orm's set up is not at all similar. The critical point is to be able to take advantage of good weather (IF you can get it) in S/O on the western front. Orm had way too much set up vs Poland to reflect what I'm talking about.

I wouldn't worry about the Pol's using their air.

You say "two lots of rain". I'm referring to S/O'39 specifically. I noticed in the Northern Temp(after the first mandatory fair weather impulses): rain, fair, fair (did I read that wrong?). The Rain is good enough to take out Netherlands. The two fair impulses give you the Dyle plus something else in Belgium. The something else could be attacks on the French line in Belgium making the line untenable, and you probably didn't even need to use an o-chit.

I'm not discounting your bad rolls...which (under my scenario) would have happened vs Poland the first impulse anyway, and after that, rolls for Netherlands plus Poland. As was pointed out to me by one of my WiF buds here in face to face WiF board game: "its not the value of the rolls, but their timing".

I used to be like you concerning Poland and being tidy when I first started playing WiF until I was shocked one game where I just barely took Paris at the end of S/O'40 (and using both o-chits on the way to do it)...I was looking at France being alive into 1941...which was something I could not accept. I vowed to never allow that to happen again, and I took into account the possibility of fair weather in S/O'39 as lost opportunity...AND, more importantly taking into account the most valuable asset in WiF: TIME.

Do you pry the CW forces in Rotterdam out before you DOW Belgium?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Warspite: "When I saw Orm do a 'similar' set up in AARse IV (although not as extreme)..."

No, in my opinion Orm's set up is not at all similar. The critical point is to be able to take advantage of good weather (IF you can get it) in S/O on the western front. Orm had way too much set up vs Poland to reflect what I'm talking about.

I wouldn't worry about the Pol's using their air.

You say "two lots of rain". I'm referring to S/O'39 specifically. I noticed in the Northern Temp(after the first mandatory fair weather impulses): rain, fair, fair (did I read that wrong?). The Rain is good enough to take out Netherlands. The two fair impulses give you the Dyle plus something else in Belgium. The something else could be attacks on the French line in Belgium making the line untenable, and you probably didn't even need to use an o-chit.

I'm not discounting your bad rolls...which (under my scenario) would have happened vs Poland the first impulse anyway, and after that, rolls for Netherlands plus Poland. As was pointed out to me by one of my WiF buds here in face to face WiF board game: "its not the value of the rolls, but their timing".

I used to be like you concerning Poland and being tidy when I first started playing WiF until I was shocked one game where I just barely took Paris at the end of S/O'40 (and using both o-chits on the way to do it)...I was looking at France being alive into 1941...which was something I could not accept. I vowed to never allow that to happen again, and I took into account the possibility of fair weather in S/O'39 as lost opportunity...AND, more importantly taking into account the most valuable asset in WiF: TIME.

warspite1

1. It was Rain, Rain, Fair, Fair. Trust me.
2. I would welcome you setting up a new thread and setting up your favoured German set-up. I will then set up as the Poles and we can go through September/October. I do not mean exchanging e-mails, we can chat through the moves.
3. Do not get me wrong I am pleased you have a strategy you favour and that you are passionate in its defence. I just don't think you can say (unless you prove me wrong!) that this is necessarily the right thing to do in all circumstances.


Re: "Its not the value of the rolls, its the timing". Well of course, that is not in dispute. I would go further it is also the odds that pertain when those dice are thrown. How many times have you thrown a 10 at 7:1 when a 2 or 3 would do? WIF is not a simple game where luck is concerned - there are soooo many factors that come into it.

[Jagdtiger14]

Well, I of course make the attempt to invade Rotterdam with an INF div. That move is a very old one in WiF and CW is always prepared for it. Assuming the INF div gets sunk, yes, the CW forces have to be pry'ed out of Rotterdam before DOW on Belgium. Crossing the Dyle is mandatory when attacking Belgium on the DOW impulse before the Allies can get there, and I like to save my o-chit(s) if possible.

The other possibility is to put the INF div out into the North Sea on the first impulse and see if it gets nailed. If it does, then you could 1. try again with the second INF div on impulse 3 (2nd Axis impulse), or 2. (if the 2nd INF div sinks) avoid the DOW on Netherlands and just go for Belgium directly and wind up using an o-chit to cross the Dyle on the next impulse (assuming fair or rain...fair in this AAR example).

Nothing is for sure or fail safe, as Warspite wrote, that's why we play the game. I think one most try to make the most of what possibilities exist. As I heard a General once say: the best plan is the one that gives you the most options.

[Barbuesque]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Warspite: Not to sound too publically critical...so please take this as very constructive criticism (In fact you might have some come to your defense): But yes, I did see the weather, and you had awesome dream-like weather for the Axis in S/O'39. This is a classic case example for why "Fall Gelb" is the way to go. Weather is never a guarantee, but if you give yourself the opportunity with "Fall Gelb" and get this kind of weather, you can really take advantage of it.

What I like to do: I usually go about 75-80% west (all ARM, Mech), all arty, and air west as well...except possibly the 2 point arty if I get it and any 2 point GS bomber if I get it (maybe the naval Stuka) goes to Poland. I have Leeb and the weakest INF (not GAR) vs Poland. My objective are the resources in the south of Poland, the naval over-run, and hemming in Lodz/Warsaw. I take down Poland slowly.

With the weather you had, you potentially could have had Netherlands, Denmark, and all of Belgium by the end of S/O'39.

The problem with this strategy is that you need Rotterdam to properly attack Belgium. And the Commonwealth can definitely get there before the germans prior to the paradrop unit being available.

You can always try landing with an infantry division, but the CW has a 50% change of intercepting with proper positioning.

Am I missing something?

NM, I see your answer. Good idea with the cruiser out on the first impulse.

The worse case scenario though, means the british in a spot that is very, very hard to take. Even an O chit doesn't guarantee crossing the Dyle either. Isn't it better to wait until the para is available to guarantee crossing the Dyle in M/A 1940 instead? Plus it's easier on US entry.

[Jagdtiger14]

Warspite:

1. I'll trust you that it was rain, rain, fair, fair...which does not change my argument.

2. I would love to do that. Unfortunately I do not yet own MWiF, so I'm not sure how we could handle that...and I don't have the board game with me in my tiny south beach appt[8D].

3. I didn't say "Fall Gelb" is the right thing to do in ALL circumstances. Everyone has their own philosophy. No one else in my gaming group does "Fall Gelb", and we argue about it all the time. The first salvo against me always goes like this: "A true 'Fall Gelb' means taking out France in 1939". Which in my opinion is not possible, so my response to that is that my version is a "Modified Fall Gelb"[8|]. I am concerned about Poland, and I would like to take them out as soon as I can with the limited forces I put there, but my main focus is westward. As I wrote before...its become my move/setup because I was shocked into it...I'm too paranoid about the fall of France taking too long, and "tidy" to me means taking advantage of the possibility of good weather in S/O'39...which you might never get. We could play our game and I could get storm/blizzard and an early exit from S/O and then that's it...nothing happened...of course that would mean bad weather on the Polish front as well. And, you could have terrible weather all the way through until M/J'40...and that's when you start. That is the weakness of Fall Gelb.

I also play with 2d10.

[Jagdtiger14]

Hi Barbuesque. Yes, there is no guarantee even with an O-chit...but the odds are in favor using an o-chit and assuming fair weather. I personally would do it. I like to stick my neck out[X(]