A Glorious Way to Die: John 3rd vs. NY59Giants BTS: Lite

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ORIGINAL: Lowpe

+1 on grabbing as many bases as you can and getting the airfields operational.

Are you prepping any forces for the bases there or waiting for Michael to spot your forces first?

No prep needed in the invasion bonus time. Still insane though. [;)]

[Lecivius]

I'm just throwing this out there, since I thought about it a while after I got my keister kicked. You take the outer islands, build the bases up a bit, lay siege to PH. Allied fighter production at the start is for squat, so some sweeps to clear the skies & establish air superiority. Begin aerial bombardment. Don't get greedy, keep it going for 2-3 months. Pretty much everything already mentioned. But here is my thought.

Don't you loose supply production if the base has opposition troops in it? I ask because I know PH will get hungry in June or so. You want to do all you can to exacerbate that issue. If my thought is correct, then you want to push hard to get troops ashore as soon as you safely can (relatively). Don't worry about attacking, keep your invasion force in supply from barges, and in Bombardment mode or even just static. This will also allow you to add more forces later after your bonus period is gone.

Just brain storming. But after John took Oz, and after I watched PH starve in my game, I always wondered if Japan could have taken the DEI & parts of Burma and then left the IO to hang while Japan took Oz & PH. Not sure if there is enough there for an A/V, but I would hate to be the allies left with that mess in the pacific.

Of course, if I am wrong in my assumption, this whole point is worthless.

[HansBolter]

There is just one big caveat to this strategy.

It completely exploits the games' lack of a mechanism to address priority needs in the Pacific that may well have caused the American war leaders to abandon the Europe First strategy.

If Pearl was assailed Europe First would likely have been pushed to a back burner whilst the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with.

While it may well be a fun adventure for a Japanese player it is decidedly unfair to the Allied player.

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.

[Mike McCreery]

As touted as it is, Pearl Harbor is not that great a gem for the Japanese player if he can even obtain it.

Strategically it is not necessary to pursue the war against the Japanese. It simply extends the supply lines. On the flip side it greatly overextends the area that the Japanese have to cover in the south pacific to avoid being surrounded.

You never answered my question about what your opponent was going to do John. Dont you know? You should... ;]

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't want to use BBs to bombard PH do I? Doesn't the CD units there have 15" guns? Except for a landing, that scares the tar out of me...

Well I've seen good results out of bombarding the base. CD guns have a tough time getting a good shot on those BBs though mines can be an issue. The invasion forces will inevitably get hard from the CD guns though. Best to bring lots of expendable merchant ships for that.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

There is just one big caveat to this strategy.

It completely exploits the games' lack of a mechanism to address priority needs in the Pacific that may well have caused the American war leaders to abandon the Europe First strategy.

If Pearl was assailed Europe First would likely have been pushed to a back burner whilst the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with.

While it may well be a fun adventure for a Japanese player it is decidedly unfair to the Allied player.

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.

Well you forget the fact that Europe was put on the back burner while the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with. Most of the resources the US could spare went to the Pacific until Midway. I'm not sure how much an invasion of Hawaii would really change the US response in the first 6 months compared to reality. But without a Midway like victory the Allies are already getting an unfair deal; they get less resources because of a strategic victory that never occurred in their reality. The biggest long term effect from an invasion of PH would probably be the amount of CVs the US produced in 44-45 but that could also have happened in the far more common event that the USN CVs are obliterated by the KB early on. Maybe it makes sense to have a small reinforcement invasion package for Hawaii but there is a reason why the designers made reinforcement packages for other invasions but not this one.

ORIGINAL: Wargmr
As touted as it is, Pearl Harbor is not that great a gem for the Japanese player if he can even obtain it.

Strategically it is not necessary to pursue the war against the Japanese. It simply extends the supply lines. On the flip side it greatly overextends the area that the Japanese have to cover in the south pacific to avoid being surrounded.

I could not disagree more on this one. The loss of Pearl Harbor is huge. The shipyard alone is invaluable. The entire Allied position in the SoPac is at risk with the Japanese in command of Pearl Harbor. How would the Allies secure their own lines of communications? Maybe if the USN CVs can deal a blow to the KB then PH isn't such a danger in Japanese hands. But if the Japanese manage to secure a sizeable edge over the USN, then it can cause all sorts of havoc with raiding.

[Lecivius]

The Europe First strategy was, IMHO, the correct one historically. It did make it hard on poor Joe out west. And I'm not to sanguine on that strategy changing if Hawaii falls. The panic that Japan would invade the CONUS did not start to fade until Midway. And that event only allowed a small shift in timetables. To put this in perspective the game mechanics follow what we all agree on was an event nothing short of miraculous. Allied production was ramped down once superiority was achieved in the Pacific. The Japanese side is under no such constraint. IMHO in game the allies are hampered at both the start AND the end because of historical events that cannot be replicated in game play.

But, one must remember in the final view this is a game. The goal is to win, or at least have a grand old time playing.

<edit> I am sorry John, I am coming close to a hijack. I now return you to your regularly scheduled AAR.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Correct me if I am wrong but I don't want to use BBs to bombard PH do I? Doesn't the CD units there have 15" guns? Except for a landing, that scares the tar out of me...

Well I've seen good results out of bombarding the base. CD guns have a tough time getting a good shot on those BBs though mines can be an issue. The invasion forces will inevitably get hard from the CD guns though. Best to bring lots of expendable merchant ships for that.

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

There is just one big caveat to this strategy.

It completely exploits the games' lack of a mechanism to address priority needs in the Pacific that may well have caused the American war leaders to abandon the Europe First strategy.

If Pearl was assailed Europe First would likely have been pushed to a back burner whilst the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with.

While it may well be a fun adventure for a Japanese player it is decidedly unfair to the Allied player.

Sorry if I rained on anyone's parade.

Well you forget the fact that Europe was put on the back burner while the crisis in the Pacific was dealt with. Most of the resources the US could spare went to the Pacific until Midway. I'm not sure how much an invasion of Hawaii would really change the US response in the first 6 months compared to reality. But without a Midway like victory the Allies are already getting an unfair deal; they get less resources because of a strategic victory that never occurred in their reality. The biggest long term effect from an invasion of PH would probably be the amount of CVs the US produced in 44-45 but that could also have happened in the far more common event that the USN CVs are obliterated by the KB early on. Maybe it makes sense to have a small reinforcement invasion package for Hawaii but there is a reason why the designers made reinforcement packages for other invasions but not this one.

ORIGINAL: Wargmr
As touted as it is, Pearl Harbor is not that great a gem for the Japanese player if he can even obtain it.

Strategically it is not necessary to pursue the war against the Japanese. It simply extends the supply lines. On the flip side it greatly overextends the area that the Japanese have to cover in the south pacific to avoid being surrounded.

I could not disagree more on this one. The loss of Pearl Harbor is huge. The shipyard alone is invaluable. The entire Allied position in the SoPac is at risk with the Japanese in command of Pearl Harbor. How would the Allies secure their own lines of communications? Maybe if the USN CVs can deal a blow to the KB then PH isn't such a danger in Japanese hands. But if the Japanese manage to secure a sizeable edge over the USN, then it can cause all sorts of havoc with raiding.

I completely agree that there would be little impact in the first six months. What we had to work with was what we had to work with. It's the huge impetus that would have followed that first six months as we reacted and likely over reacted to the incursion.
It wouldn't mean having any better means to oppose the move from the outset, but it would likely mean a big move up of the build up in the Pacific and yes I also agree it would likely have led to even greater carrier production.
None of these things get modeled in the game. The only reaction is to an invasion of the mainland not counting Canada and we know all JFBs avoid that trigger. Don't have a lot of time today to defend my position. Sorry guys.

[John 3rd]

No hijack occurring. This is a solid and GOOD discussion. My view of the American timetable is that nearly everything went to the Pacific early on. BTS already accepts a more desperate American position by allowing all those early conversion to CVEs, additional CVLs, etc... This move will simply make reality the fear that the US of A would have had if a serious attempt was made to take Hawaii.

What will Michael do?

His response will be slow, concentrated, and--in his view--decisive. WHAT is it? Don't know but here is an important element to think on. He absolutely LOVES to get every ALLIED Flattop vessel into the same TF. Look at what he was doing against Cribtop. He will work to get everything together.

My HOPE is to make him put a TON of miles onto those ships. We'll be decisively moving against Hawaii by early-January. He'll need--or feel the compulsion--to move the 'Death Star' in that direction. This is why I will wait until the bonus is nearly done before I launch the OFFENSIVE IN THE WEST. Gang. DAI NIPPON shall also launch a major offensive in the west. India? Ceylon? Diego Garcia? Eastern India? I am going that way.

The hope is to see-saw him back-and-forth and make things look really MURKY. I shall begin immediate PREP--once Singers Falls--for one or two of these targets. I was denied a chance to try it versus Cribtop and Michael will know this. My thinking is he'll see that prep as a decoy as I punch Hawaii. Well...what if it ISN'T??!!!

[seille]

no updates, Sir ?

[John 3rd]

Been busy this week. My store did a school district fundraiser for the the scholarship fund and we raised about $6-700. We donated a dollar for every footlong sold so you see that is a BUNCH of footlong sandwiches. Worked 33 hours in three days (Wed-Thurs-Fri) with Thursday being a 14+ hour day. NASTY! Good cause though. If it hadn't rained we would have done far better but oh, well...

I have to go in and put the delivery away and then have a WONDERFUL thing. Am going to be all alone in the house for 3-4 hours. CANNOT WAIT. Will run the turn and do an extensive update.

[John 3rd]

We'll do regional reports for December 12-16, 1941.

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
December 12-16, 1941
Aleutians

As planned, Fast Transports land SNLF troops at Umnak, Adak, and Amchitka. The landings are uneventful and the bases fall on the 15th and 16th.

My lone CL's FP spots shipping at Dutch Harbor so I order CL Naka and 6 DDs to do a sweep of DH and Cold Bay. The 16th finds the weather AWFUL and my STF finds SARATOGA, 2 CAs (the new Rome and Anchorage), and 6 DDs near DH. CHARGE! Combat is just two gunnery rounds but it starts at 3,000 Yds. Several American Dds get smacked, both CAs take multiple hits but Saratoga is not touched. Torpedo's were flung at Sara and the two CAs but they all missed. DRAT! My CL takes some damage and two DDs are moderately struck.

Bet Michael had KITTENS watching!

No action for the rest of the day so my forces finished unloading and headed back to Paramushiro Jima.

On the off chance of hitting again I detach 4 DDs to sweep into Dutch Harbor.

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
December 12-16, 1941

Things move at good speed with no hiccups here.

The Line Islands
Fast Transport TF take Christmas on the 16th and land at Palmyra. That base does not fall immediately but will with the next assault. A third Fast TF will land a Japanese Base Force at Christmas tomorrow. Fly in 12 Mavis immediately to begin air search.

KB hangs nearby to intercept any incoming TF that might foolishly close in. Got two groups of AOs keeping KB fueled. Am moving at cruise speed and things look pretty positive presently for the Kido Butai.

The Akagi's need to go home for repairs makes for an interesting development. The CV arrives at Kwajalein on the 15th and docks. Will repair SYS to ZERO before heading for home. Have decided to off-load her entire air group. Her air wing will go to Christmas once the AF hit Sz-2. Since an Air Flotilla will be present there at that point, this could make a pretty effective stop-gap defense unit until I can bring in the 9th Air Fleet.

Presently there at 4 Cargo TF crossing north and west of the Marshalls. They will stock the bases to the brim as we prepare for the assault on Hawaii. The 2nd and 56th are in the same location moving steadily towards Christmas as well. So far I have lifted 10-12 support units to work on the AFs and Ports to make these forward bases bigger. Combined Fleet will be loaded tomorrow to head for its new HQ at Christmas.

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
December 12-16, 1941
Central Pacific

The northern arm of Operation Eastern Storm closes in on Midway.

Combined two TF to create a massed Invasion Force. An SNLF Assault Brigade, CD unit, and two Base Forces move steadily eastward, A BB, cruiser, and several DDs are embedded for gunfire support. We have not been spotted YET.

The three Escort Carriers hurry to catch-up to the Invasion Force. CVE Taiyo, Ibuki, and Hosho carry 15 Zero, 24 Claude, 12 Val, and 12 Kate. Want those fighters on CAP--just in case. Have to factor a chance of Saratoga moving down from the north trying to get a lick in on the Invasion TF.

In the screenshot one can see Wake fallen with a follow-on TF bringing in a Base Force and 10,000 Supply. As a footnote to Wake, I managed to bag the entire F4F squadron there when the atoll fell. It was a pleasant surprise.

A large supply convoy is seen moving NW to SE.

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
December 12-16, 1941
South Pacific

I have little-to-no strength here so we are being cautious!

Small Invasion Forces capture Wewak and Madang. Follow-On TF have dropped off engineers and a Base Force at each location.

A Fast TF will grab Finschhaven tomorrow.

Just arrived at Truk are the 4 16" BBs of Japan. The Nagato's and Owari's arrive there on the 15th after making sure they were seen in the DEI at the start of the war. Those ships depart for Kwajalein tomorrow.

KB-3 (CARDIV2) is moving to Truk for fuel and supply before joining the KB. Michael will be shocked to see me concentrate my CVs this early!

As with the earlier picture, one can see an AOs TF and large Cargo TF moving east carrying what shall be needed to Eastern Storm.

[John 3rd]

Got to take a break before more Posting.

[John 3rd]

Combat Report
December 12-19, 1941
Phil--DEI--Malaya

While things are ahead of schedule in this region, it has not been without some issues. Michael is being a good Allied player trying to get some licks in bleeding me a little here and a little there. Some of his moves have been smart and highly effective.

Philippines
Mindanao
This area is always a quick priority for me. I want it for the bases and to serve as a solid springboard for moving south. As one can see on the map, the entire island shall be mine within 2-3 days. Major forces here are the 18th ID, an SNLF Assault Brigade, and the SNLF Para Assault Brigade.

Luzon
All the eastern bases from Subic Bay up are taken. I've only used the 48th ID and 65th Brigade. Am holding for the moment waiting the reinforcement of the 38th ID (from Hong Kong) before moving into Clark. His units are pretty evenly spread between Clark--Bataan--Manila presently. When Mindanao wraps up, the 18th ID will move in to help up here.

Eastern DEI
Manado
Took this base using an Inf Reg, however, Michael struck back twice causing losses. He attacked with that damned Vibrator (Vindicator) Squadron Lexington carries at the start of the war and they sank 4-5 lesser ships. I disbanded into the Port there and was then promptly hit by 18 B-17 TWICE sinking two more ships and damaging six others. NOT GOOD. Moved in Zeros and they smacked around a Hudson Squadron as well as damaged some of the B-17s.

Namlea
Have a Fast TF about to take Namlea (next to Ambon). That Sz-2 AF is just what the Doctor ordered for protecting my slower invasion forces as I move into the area.

Borneo
Tarakan
Will take this base tomorrow as an entire Brigade with BBs embedded prepare to land.

Miri/Brunei
These bases fell without issue or damage to oil facilities. Those DRATTED Vibrators showed up again and sank two AK and damaged one more. Grrr...

Singkawang
Michael has moved useful bombers here trying to cut my forces reinforcing Palembang. Set-Up a CAP TRap for tomorrow. My KB-4 (CVLs Ryujo, Zuiho, and Shoho) just refueled and rearmed at Cam Rahn Bay. They move directly towards this base with all three Zero Daitai set at 100% CAP Range 1. If those bombers fly, they will be met by 60 Zeros and shall be SHREDDED!

Malaya
Proceeding swimmingly! Cut the peninsula in half keeping ALL the forces north of Port Dickson from retreating to Singers. Now have Mersing, Kloung, Johore Bharu, and Malacca.

The Imperial Guards is moving down from the north with 4 TK Regiments.

The 55th, 5th, 18th, and 21st ID are getting into Johore Bharu and will move south within 3 days. Expect an assault crossing by Christmas. Singapore will fall within days of that BABY! As I said...swimmingly!

Sumatra
Palembang fell on the 18th. I landed second Brigade that easily handled the defenders. Presently have three Base Forces moving in to set-up the AF. Will work to take the southern edge of Sumatra ASAP. The oil facilities took some damage but are not bad. Lordy. Don't we, as Japanese players, look to check Palembang after capture with great fear and trepidation??!! I've got about 100 each of oil and refinery to repair. Not bad but would prefer to NOT use supply for this!

Burma
Haven't even begun to look at it. Everything is for Singers though I am sure Michael is evacuating ALL of it. Let him eat some penalty points for leaving those bases so quickly.

NOTE: RA/BTS adds a lot of garrison requirements to China, India, and Burma. This helps to suck-up units that would be deployed elsewhere and SLOW things down. China is the worst with this in that we added nearly 1,000 additional garrison points for EACH SIDE. India added about 500 and Burma added roughly 150. We'll see if this works at all.

That is the war so far...

[John 3rd]

In the spirit of unintended consequences, I have a problem within Between the Storms Lite. The choice to not build Yamato--Musashi allows for Japan to deploy a pair of new 16.1 inch gunned BBs and a B-65 BC at the start of the war. While nice, I could not have expected to see the unintended consequence of this building change.

Simply put, with no BBs building, Japan has a glut of shipbuilding points. WOW! I've already accelerated several of the late-war Shokaku Kai CVs as well as the last CVL. Once Junyo--Hiyo--Nisshin are done, I will be able to accelerate 2 more CVs. COOL!

This is a lovely development but not very realistic. Yesterday I worked on Mod tweaks and decided to put back into the mix a second pair of Owari-Class BBs. These BBs are due out on late-43/early-44. They should sunk up enough points to force the Japanese player to make choices within his shipbuilding. I---LOVE---CHOICES!

Anyway...here is the screenshot showing Capital Ship construction:

[Sangeli]

How quickly can you complete the Renkaku and Taikaku? In my current 1 vs 1 PBEM game with RA 7.0 I found the Japanese had already completed both CVs by late fall 42. As you say I find this pretty unrealistic and it makes life as an Allied player very difficult. USN has to live with only 6 CVs till mid 43 while the IJN can have 11 starting in late 42. Extra CVEs help but ultimately CVs dominate as I have found out the hard way. The result of course is that under normal circumstances being able to accelerate those CVs allows the Japanese to maintain that dominance at sea well into 1943. This will likely have a big impact for you in taking Pearl Harbor sometime in mid 42.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Burma
Haven't even begun to look at it. Everything is for Singers though I am sure Michael is evacuating ALL of it. Let him eat some penalty points for leaving those bases so quickly.

What makes you so sure that he's evacuating it? I fear Burma is one of those places that ignoring it early on can have some very negative consequences. Allies can bring in some units early on to bolster the Burmese defenses to say nothing of dumping supply that can be brought to China. You could find yourself in a position where the only way you can take Burma is a 3+ division landing at Pegu. Of course that is doable but if my eyes are on Pearl Harbor the last thing I'd want to do is have to use my navy to take Burma.

[John 3rd]

Hey Sir.

I plan to advance all the 44-45 CV/CVLs. I don't like finding out this issue once a game has started but I won't abuse it. The newer version fixes it and that should help a bunch.

Trust me. Michael will totally evacuate Burma. He'll fear a deep ball by me so he won't allow me an opportunity (real or imagined) to get behind his troops and cut them off.

This is an advantage in playing someone I know so well. Take two examples in our game so far:

1. Saratoga to the Aleutians. KNEW he would do this. This is why I only used Fast TF to grab my bases. If I had used AMC or regular Transports then they would have been crushed by Sara's Air Group.
2. Diego Garcia: He always rushes a Brigade to this location. Makes sense due to its importance. I stationed two patrolling I-Boats there and they have sunk 2 AP and AK with damage to one more of each.

We spoke on the phone today and he was kidding me about crossing off my Opening Moves one-by-one: Line Islands--CHECK, Midway--CHECK, Palembang--CHECK, etc... So far no clue as to my intentions