Recon losses

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DTomato
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Recon losses

Post by DTomato »

The WA have lost almost 300 recon planes in the four turns of the game. They were mostly flying at 36k with high-altitude cameras.
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Seminole
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Seminole »

The WA have lost almost 300 recon planes in the four turns of the game. They were mostly flying at 36k with high-altitude cameras.

I don't have the experience with the WA grand campaign AF, so I can't be sure, but I are you using them 'too hard'?

By eschewing flights over France so far you've allowed me to concentrate my fighter defenses, and so you're flying into the teeth of them.

Image


Not sure how many are also Operational Losses, but I assume those increase with fatigue. I'll update to the beta today.
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Belphegor
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Belphegor »

You're not escorting them? or not this batch
DTomato
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RE: Recon losses

Post by DTomato »

@Seminole: I thought recon planes were supposed to receive bonuses that made them harder to shoot down. If I'm flying into the teeth of your defenses, perhaps it's because that's where the key targets are (like U-boats).

@Belphegor: I never escorted recons in my other games, and never had a problem. If escorts are needed, then the Allies can't recon past the Ruhr until '44.

Either way, I remember that recon took huge losses in early versions of the game, but this was fixed. I'm wondering if this a bug or a design feature. And if the latter, how are the Allies supposed to do all the recon that's needed?

DT
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Helpless
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Helpless »

Recon planes still getting quite big bonus (attacker's skill rating reduced 4-6 times).

Interception is getting easier when flight is bigger. Tactical recon efficiency depends on the amount of planes (when mission pct is 100% it will send 12 planes). In such case it is important to have escorts.

Strategic recon efficiency does not depend on the amount of planes. So take photos with smaller flights but more often. Smaller flight interception is much more difficult task. You may set required AC to lower value for start recon ADs.

Btw, Denniss asked to remove camera device influence on aircraft performance figures, when setting defaults in editor. It should help recons to survive interception in the future.
Pavel Zagzin
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DTomato
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RE: Recon losses

Post by DTomato »

Thanks, Pavel. That was helpful! i set the recon percentage at 25 percent, and losses dropped 75 percent.

DT
Harrybanana
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: DicedT

Thanks, Pavel. That was helpful! i set the recon percentage at 25 percent, and losses dropped 75 percent.

DT

But DT and Helpless do you still have the same number of sorties? By that I mean supposing you have 60 recon aircraft that you want to recon a particular 6 hex radius area of the map for each of the 7 days of the turn. Does setting the fly percentage to 25% still mean that on each day all 60 of your recon aircraft will fly the recon mission, but in 20 groups of 3 rather then 5 groups of 12? If not and fewer AC perform the recon mission won't this effect the efficiency of the recon?

My understanding is that historically recon missions were generally flown either by single AC or by widely separated pairs without escort.
Robert Harris
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Ralzakark
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Ralzakark »

Historically the RAF PRU loss rate was 0.6% in June 1944, climbing to 2.9% in September due to the appearance on the Me 262 (50% of losses occurred in areas where the jet was operating). Info from Edward Leaf's 'Above All Unseen'.
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Harrybanana
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: Ralzakark

Historically the RAF PRU loss rate was 0.6% in June 1944, climbing to 2.9% in September due to the appearance on the Me 262 (50% of losses occurred in areas where the jet was operating). Info from Edward Leaf's 'Above All Unseen'.

Thanks Ralzark, but for us non-military types what does "PRU loss rate" mean? Does it mean losses for all causes or just enemy related (ie non-operational losses)?
Robert Harris
Harrybanana
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Harrybanana »

I ran a few tests with 2nd RAF TAC in the May 44 Campaign Game doing high level (36,000 feet) recon over a 4 hex radius area in The Pas de Calais area (hex 92,186 to be precise). I only used the 60 spitfire and mosquito recon aircraft (as they have the high level cameras). I flew without escorts. The weather was light rain.

In the first test I just left the mission percent at 100. The results were that I flew 4 to 7 raids each day of 12 aircraft each. As the week wore on and losses mounted fewer missions were flown. I flew a total of 35 raids (an average of 5 per day)and 410 sorties. I lost 18 AC in A2A and another 19 were damaged, mostly operational. I only reconned about half the potential hexes, but inn the hexes reconned my Airrecon number was anywhere from 3 to 20, with most being in the teens.

In the second test I set the mission percent at 10. In the result I flew a total of 166 raids of 2 AC each and therefore 332 sorties. I lost only 2 AC in A2A. I reconned almost every hex in my target area. But my recon levels for each hex were only 2 or 3; which is useless.

Robert Harris
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Belphegor
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Belphegor »

Pavel did mention that for tactical recce you need aircraft numbers. Only Strat recce you don't
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LiquidSky
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RE: Recon losses

Post by LiquidSky »



Best way to do tactical recon (looking for units) is to saturate bomb (interdict) the area. As they planes fly to their bombing target, they will recon the hex below (and perhaps adjacent if they are high enough). Doesn't matter if you aren't interested in the actual bombing effects..the main effect you want is recon.

You can add actual unit recon to the mix to pump those numbers higher.
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Harrybanana
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: Belphegor

Pavel did mention that for tactical recce you need aircraft numbers. Only Strat recce you don't

Well I had the numbers in that I was still sending in the same number of AC to do the recon; I was just trying to send them in smaller groups to avoid interception. The problem seems to be that one group of 12 recon AC reconning a hex appear to do a much better job then six groups of 2 AC. I don't think this is historically accurate as recon missions were generally flown by a single unescorted AC. But, unless I am missing something, you can't do this in the game and get effective recon, thus forcing you to send in larger escorted groups.
Robert Harris
Harrybanana
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Harrybanana »

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky



Best way to do tactical recon (looking for units) is to saturate bomb (interdict) the area. As they planes fly to their bombing target, they will recon the hex below (and perhaps adjacent if they are high enough). Doesn't matter if you aren't interested in the actual bombing effects..the main effect you want is recon.

You can add actual unit recon to the mix to pump those numbers higher.

Thanks for the advice LiquidSky, I was not aware of this. But the question remains as to what is the most effective way to use your recon AC for tactical recon purposes as I usually use them with "interdiction" and "railways" as my priorities. It would appear that you have to fly them in escorted groups, but if anyone has a better way i would love to hear it.
Robert Harris
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Ralzakark
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RE: Recon losses

Post by Ralzakark »

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

ORIGINAL: Ralzakark

Historically the RAF PRU loss rate was 0.6% in June 1944, climbing to 2.9% in September due to the appearance on the Me 262 (50% of losses occurred in areas where the jet was operating). Info from Edward Leaf's 'Above All Unseen'.

Thanks Ralzark, but for us non-military types what does "PRU loss rate" mean? Does it mean losses for all causes or just enemy related (ie non-operational losses)?


The phrase Leaf actually uses is 'The usually low casualty rate in the PRU rose dramatically, from 0.6% in June to 2.9% in September'. From the context it is clear he is talking about the 'failed to return' rate for aircraft on missions. Flying singly deep in to enemy territory it was rare that the cause of a loss was known, so the figure will include losses due to flak, interception, mechanical failure, weather, pilot error, etc. I doubt that any losses due to crash landings on local ferry flights or the like are included.

Getting percentage loss figures for the PRU is difficult. Sharp and Bowyer's book 'Mosquito' has a few I can find by glancing through:

1. Before the period of WitW 1 PRU Mosquitos between September 1941 and October 1942 flew the following:
- 212 successful missions
- 41 abandoned due to weather
- 20 mechanical failures
- 3 aborted before target
- 6 aircraft failed to return
This gives a loss rate of 2.17% with the early Mosquitoes.

2. 540 Squadron flew 393 sorties in the first four months of 1945 and lost only one Mosquito, a 0.25% loss rate.

3. Total PRU Mosquito losses (missing from operations) by model were:
- PR.1 - 5
- PR. IV - 8
- PR. VIII - 1
- PR. IX - 14
- PR. XVI - 6
Without knowing the number of missions flown I cannot work out the loss rate, but the absolute losses were very low.


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marion61
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RE: Recon losses

Post by marion61 »

So is that where the phrase, "I'm a leaf on the wind" comes from?[;)]
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