New Model Indian Army
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: New Model Indian Army
I wasn't aware that had been worked on - very good and welcome news!
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: New Model Indian Army
Funny thing, my friend, is that many of the tweaks were done by Michaelm in the 1107 rev, which eventually became the 1108r9 comprehensive update. There were some on-going grits that Michaelm handled in beta. They are now wrapped up in the latest "official" update.ORIGINAL: witpqs
I wasn't aware that had been worked on - very good and welcome news!
Thing is that the forum posts on this subject are simply wrong. Ciao. JWE
[ed] And now that's done, pal, why not let's go back to to the OP premise, yeah ?
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
RE: New Model Indian Army
I like the sounds of this. Got an ETA on when us poor people can take a gander at it.
RE: New Model Indian Army
Hey witpqs,
One last quickie before getting back to India. The brigade/regiment thing is kinda fundamental to the BBSM paradigm, and plays a big part in DBB, so it will be fairly pervasive. There's lots of 'recieved wisdom' out there that is rather confusing, and that might keep people from trying the system. Maybe you could give Alfred a heads-up on this so he can continue doing what he does so well? There's a couple other features and play recommendations that make this work very well. Shoot me a note and I'll detail these and let ya'll know where michaelm put the goodies. Between the two of you, I know you will be able to explain it better than I could, and can put folks on the right track.
Ciao. JWE
One last quickie before getting back to India. The brigade/regiment thing is kinda fundamental to the BBSM paradigm, and plays a big part in DBB, so it will be fairly pervasive. There's lots of 'recieved wisdom' out there that is rather confusing, and that might keep people from trying the system. Maybe you could give Alfred a heads-up on this so he can continue doing what he does so well? There's a couple other features and play recommendations that make this work very well. Shoot me a note and I'll detail these and let ya'll know where michaelm put the goodies. Between the two of you, I know you will be able to explain it better than I could, and can put folks on the right track.
Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
RE: New Model Indian Army
Email sent.Shoot me a note
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: New Model Indian Army
Oh, my.ORIGINAL: DOCUP
I like the sounds of this. Got an ETA on when us poor people can take a gander at it.
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Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
RE: New Model Indian Army
I need to play more golf.[:D]
RE: New Model Indian Army
ORIGINAL: Symon
Ho Daddy!!![X(][&o]
Now that's what I'm talking about!!
Oh!
Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.
TOMLABEL
Art by the Rogue-USMC
WITP Admiral's Edition: Ship & Sub Art/Base Unit Art/Map Icon Art
"If destruction be our lot - it will come from within"...Abraham Lincoln
RE: New Model Indian Army
Oh, heck yes, I'd let her play in my foursome! But it would kill my handicap; I'd slice unmercifully and drive every ball into the water hazard!ORIGINAL: TOMLABEL
Ho Daddy!!![X(][&o]
Now that's what I'm talking about!!
Oh!
Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.
TOMLABEL
Oh!
Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.
Well, in certain respects, we have the infantry anti-armor figured out. What we have is infantry squads with the intrinsic anti-armor of their intrinsic infantry weapons; rifles, LMGs, all that stuff. But there were some pretty specific AT-rifle, Piat, and Bazooka teams called out in the establishments.
For example, the Brits had a .55 cal Boys team (3 men, one ATR) as part of platoon HQ section (one 2” mortar team, one ATR team). The 2” mortars are folded into the squad definitions, but the AT teams can be collected and abstracted like what was done with the Brens and troops of the ‘carrier’ platoon.
One can count noses and have quite a few of these, but aggregating them in threes gives a reasonable AT squad size and a reasonable number of AT squads in a higher unit – approximately as many as MMG/HMG squads. So one is able to get decent anti-armor capability (including the Chinese, btw) without violating the firepower vs assault value rules and allowing a better tailoring of the strictly infantry components. Our play results suggest that armored units may no longer flit hither and yon and play the 900 lb gorilla.
So there’s a new section/squad called AT section/squad that informs the anti-armor paradigm. They follow the AT weapon progression but have little firepower in the conventional sense. This also allows nominal infantry squads to remain at nominal levels for a longer period of time. Makes upgrade build rates a lot easier to handle.
Ciao JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
RE: New Model Indian Army
ORIGINAL: Symon
Oh, heck yes, I'd let her play in my foursome! But it would kill my handicap; I'd slice unmercifully and drive every ball into the water hazard!
Oh!
Yes, Indian Army.........sorry.
Ciao JWE
Sorry J!! I just saw "model" in the thread title and.....[:D][:D][:D]
TOMLABEL
Art by the Rogue-USMC
WITP Admiral's Edition: Ship & Sub Art/Base Unit Art/Map Icon Art
"If destruction be our lot - it will come from within"...Abraham Lincoln
RE: New Model Indian Army
Love ya Kelley. No worries.
We can’t do Indian AT squads (Boys, Bazookas, PIATs, T-97s, PTRDs) because if we do it for India, we have to do it for “everybody” and that would be a stone witch. But we do have some nice anti-armor values for squads that aren’t normally armed with an AT weapon. I’m working off muzzle energy, with a factor for bullet type mix (ball, AP). Just for fun here’s some numbers for the various US, Brit, and IJ LMGs and MMGs out there. Surprisingly, the Lewis guns were chambered for both the .303 and 30-06 and could fire either US-M2 or Br-Mk VII (depending on chambering), without difficulty.
US 7.62x63 M2 (BAR & MGs) penetrates 8mm (8.47mm) at 250 yards: ~3.7k joules muzzle energy
Br 7.7x56 MkVIII/z (Vickers) penetrates 7mm (7.26mm) at 250 yards: ~3.6k joules muzzle energy
Br 7.7x56 MkVII (Bren, etc.) penetrates 6mm (6.35mm) at 250 yards: ~3.4k joules muzzle energy
IJ 7.7x58 SRAP (T-92) penetrates 6mm at 250 yards (5.96mm); ~3.3k joules muzzle energy
IJ 6.6x50 SRAP (T-96) penetrates 4mm at 250 yards (4.27mm); ~2.4k joules muzzle energy
So we can tweak certain squad anti-armor values a bit for standard DBB.
In standard DBB, of course, not every squad has an AT weapon; and not every AT weapon has a clear shot; not every AT weapon is on the line ready to boogie; and indeed not every weapon gets a direct 90 degree shot. So squad anti-armor penetration values for ATRs, Bazookas, PIATs, whatever, are reduced according to a set formula, applicable to everybody. That makes it easy because it’s only a Device file hit and can be updated without issues.
[ed] Just a quick question. Do you all really care about this stuff, or would you rather I just go about the business and make it happen, and present it, surprises and all?
Ciao. JWE
We can’t do Indian AT squads (Boys, Bazookas, PIATs, T-97s, PTRDs) because if we do it for India, we have to do it for “everybody” and that would be a stone witch. But we do have some nice anti-armor values for squads that aren’t normally armed with an AT weapon. I’m working off muzzle energy, with a factor for bullet type mix (ball, AP). Just for fun here’s some numbers for the various US, Brit, and IJ LMGs and MMGs out there. Surprisingly, the Lewis guns were chambered for both the .303 and 30-06 and could fire either US-M2 or Br-Mk VII (depending on chambering), without difficulty.
US 7.62x63 M2 (BAR & MGs) penetrates 8mm (8.47mm) at 250 yards: ~3.7k joules muzzle energy
Br 7.7x56 MkVIII/z (Vickers) penetrates 7mm (7.26mm) at 250 yards: ~3.6k joules muzzle energy
Br 7.7x56 MkVII (Bren, etc.) penetrates 6mm (6.35mm) at 250 yards: ~3.4k joules muzzle energy
IJ 7.7x58 SRAP (T-92) penetrates 6mm at 250 yards (5.96mm); ~3.3k joules muzzle energy
IJ 6.6x50 SRAP (T-96) penetrates 4mm at 250 yards (4.27mm); ~2.4k joules muzzle energy
So we can tweak certain squad anti-armor values a bit for standard DBB.
In standard DBB, of course, not every squad has an AT weapon; and not every AT weapon has a clear shot; not every AT weapon is on the line ready to boogie; and indeed not every weapon gets a direct 90 degree shot. So squad anti-armor penetration values for ATRs, Bazookas, PIATs, whatever, are reduced according to a set formula, applicable to everybody. That makes it easy because it’s only a Device file hit and can be updated without issues.
[ed] Just a quick question. Do you all really care about this stuff, or would you rather I just go about the business and make it happen, and present it, surprises and all?
Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
- ny59giants
- Posts: 9881
- Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:02 pm
RE: New Model Indian Army
Just a quick question. Do you all really care about this stuff, or would you rather I just go about the business and make it happen, and present it, surprises and all?
Just grip it and rip it!! [:D]
All I need is the horsepower rating. Not interested in the compression ratio, torque, type of transmission, etc.
[center][/center]
RE: New Model Indian Army
Don't listen to this wacko! [:D][;)] Give us the gory details!ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Just a quick question. Do you all really care about this stuff, or would you rather I just go about the business and make it happen, and present it, surprises and all?
Just grip it and rip it!! [:D]
All I need is the horsepower rating. Not interested in the compression ratio, torque, type of transmission, etc.
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: New Model Indian Army
+1 [:D] John please keep at it, I find the "gory details" fascinating.ORIGINAL: witpqs
Don't listen to this wacko! [:D][;)] Give us the gory details!ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Just a quick question. Do you all really care about this stuff, or would you rather I just go about the business and make it happen, and present it, surprises and all?
Just grip it and rip it!! [:D]
All I need is the horsepower rating. Not interested in the compression ratio, torque, type of transmission, etc.
RE: New Model Indian Army
“Gory Details”, okey dokey then. The premise for the whole anti-soft/armor value thing is “the last 100 yards”. The game system is divided into firing phases and assault phases. I chose to make weapon “shooting” values reflect the battlespace paradigm beyond the 100 yard assault edge. Effectivity of an infantry weapon “begins” at 100 yards. That's what was done for the game back in the beginning, and has been there ever since.ORIGINAL: drw61
+1 [:D] John please keep at it, I find the "gory details" fascinating.
Interesting thing about all this is it puts SMGs into a more appropriate perspective. SMGs couldn’t do much at ranges beyond 100 yards. They were useful in the final assault phase, but as ‘directed’ firepower for the ‘advance to assault’ phase, they were clearly not as useful as their raw statistics might suggest.
Infantry AT weapon effectivity/penetration is set at 250 yards for conventional weapons, and at an abstracted range/effectivity parameter for NEAT types (PIAT, Bazooka). There is a ‘root 2’ factor that differentiates AT effect of single shot AT weapons from the AT effect of cyclic weapons.
Checking the sources, I find the PIAT wasn’t even introduced into the Pac Theater till after July 1943; and then it took some months to get into the deployed units. Similarly, the Bazooka wasn’t introduced into the Pac Theater till roughly February 1943. While it didn’t have the pen, range and accuracy problems of the PIAT, it had problems of its own relating to the effects of heat, humidity and salt on its electrical firing system.
Funny thing is that, post war, the Australians did a survey of weapon effectiveness and the Bazooka and PIAT topped the charts, followed by the Bren. Obviously it wasn’t because of their AT capability, it was because of their flexibility; bunker busting, urban door opening, basically a “big” stand-off grenade thrower. Oh my, the paradigms we have to work with. Woof !! Ciao, JWE
[ed] Ya'll want the stats? You might not like them, but I have them, and they work, so long as you aren't a fanboi for either side. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
RE: New Model Indian Army
Ya'll want the stats? You might not like them, but I have them, and they work, so long as you aren't a fanboi for either side. JWE
We can take it! Besides, you can't hear howls of pain over the Inter-webby-tubes unless we link to YouTube or somethin'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4dOsbsuhYGQ
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: New Model Indian Army
I always have tunes going on a side channel. [8D]
Original Bn establishment was based on II/1931/12F/1, April 1940, officially modified by II/1931/12F/2, June,1941, superseded by II/1940/12F/1, August 1941, but modifications only partially implemented till March 1942, due to lack of necessary support weapons for increased establishments. BIA units in Malaya/Burma, including British, were on the 1940 (quasi ’41) establishments.
Pretty sure the Burma Rifle infantry units were on the 1940 establishment, throughout, but that is opinion based on inference and is not dispositive. Burmese Frontier Force stuff was pretty poop-hot, well trained, fleshed out to standards, but used a motley of equipment; all of it pretty decent, though.
Original:
HQ Company with the usual HQ, signals, admin, and pioneer platoons, plus:
* AA Platoon – 4x 15cwt trucks, each with a single Lewis or Bren, and carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Mortar Platoon – 2x 3” mortars, and 1x 15cwt ammo truck also carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Carrier Platoon – 9x transport (carrier or ACV-IP), each with LMG (Bren or Vickers). One out of each section of 3 carrying a Boys ATR if available
4x Rifle Companies, each comprising:
* 3x Rifle Platoons, each comprising 1x 2” mortar team and 3x rifle sections of 8 men (each section with LMG)
Very thin establishment; basically what the BEF took to France. The modifications of 1941 took the rifle sections up to 10 men, but the rifle platoons were otherwise unchanged, except a Boys ATR was carried, if available in the platoon 15cwt HQ truck, along with the mortar, but no additional personnel were added to operate it. Most modifications were increases to support weapons. The Mortar Platoon increased tubes from 2 to 6, and the Carrier Platoon increased from 3 sections of 3, to 4 sections of 3.
Due to the lack of sufficient quantities of carrier vehicles and 3” mortars, the BIA units in Malaya/Burma only managed to get increases to the rifle sections to 1941 standards, but retained the 1940 standards for support weapons in the battalion HQ company. Notably, for British units, much of the HQ company’s capabilities was taken on by Indian troops. Only BnHQ and Signals Platoon were maintained as “pure” British. Everything else was a motley. This freed up British troops for the rifle section increases and for the unit First Reinforcement (if possible).
Newly raised BIA units, in India, and units deployed from the UK after August, 1941, were “officially” on the new standard, but again, limited availability of support weapons often rendered this nugatory.
August 1941:
HQ Company with the usual HQ, signals, admin, and pioneer platoons, plus:
* AA Platoon – 4x 15cwt trucks, each with a twin Lewis or Bren if possible, and carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Mortar Platoon – 6x 3” mortars, and 3x 15cwt ammo truck each also carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Carrier Platoon – 12x transport (carrier or ACV-IP), each with LMG (Bren or Vickers). One out of each section of 3 carrying a Boys ATR if available,
4x Rifle Companies, each comprising:
* 3x Rifle Platoons, each comprising 1x 2” mortar team and 3x rifle sections of 10 men (each section with LMG)
BIA had a mix of Brens and locally produced Vickers-Berthiers. No big since they were substantially similar and fired the same round. Carriers were also a mix of Universal Carriers (tracked) and ACV-IP (wheeled). Carriers were always in short supply, even though India produced 4,550 ACVs (armored carrier vehicles, or armored combat vehicles, if you prefer). They were all-purpose and functioned in the role of carriers, scout cars, armored cars, recce cars, and some were modified as mortar carriers, and 3% modified with the LMGs in a turret. Like the Universal Carrier, the LMG was dismountable from the ACV for tactical use in support of the infantry.
Ciao. JWE
Original Bn establishment was based on II/1931/12F/1, April 1940, officially modified by II/1931/12F/2, June,1941, superseded by II/1940/12F/1, August 1941, but modifications only partially implemented till March 1942, due to lack of necessary support weapons for increased establishments. BIA units in Malaya/Burma, including British, were on the 1940 (quasi ’41) establishments.
Pretty sure the Burma Rifle infantry units were on the 1940 establishment, throughout, but that is opinion based on inference and is not dispositive. Burmese Frontier Force stuff was pretty poop-hot, well trained, fleshed out to standards, but used a motley of equipment; all of it pretty decent, though.
Original:
HQ Company with the usual HQ, signals, admin, and pioneer platoons, plus:
* AA Platoon – 4x 15cwt trucks, each with a single Lewis or Bren, and carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Mortar Platoon – 2x 3” mortars, and 1x 15cwt ammo truck also carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Carrier Platoon – 9x transport (carrier or ACV-IP), each with LMG (Bren or Vickers). One out of each section of 3 carrying a Boys ATR if available
4x Rifle Companies, each comprising:
* 3x Rifle Platoons, each comprising 1x 2” mortar team and 3x rifle sections of 8 men (each section with LMG)
Very thin establishment; basically what the BEF took to France. The modifications of 1941 took the rifle sections up to 10 men, but the rifle platoons were otherwise unchanged, except a Boys ATR was carried, if available in the platoon 15cwt HQ truck, along with the mortar, but no additional personnel were added to operate it. Most modifications were increases to support weapons. The Mortar Platoon increased tubes from 2 to 6, and the Carrier Platoon increased from 3 sections of 3, to 4 sections of 3.
Due to the lack of sufficient quantities of carrier vehicles and 3” mortars, the BIA units in Malaya/Burma only managed to get increases to the rifle sections to 1941 standards, but retained the 1940 standards for support weapons in the battalion HQ company. Notably, for British units, much of the HQ company’s capabilities was taken on by Indian troops. Only BnHQ and Signals Platoon were maintained as “pure” British. Everything else was a motley. This freed up British troops for the rifle section increases and for the unit First Reinforcement (if possible).
Newly raised BIA units, in India, and units deployed from the UK after August, 1941, were “officially” on the new standard, but again, limited availability of support weapons often rendered this nugatory.
August 1941:
HQ Company with the usual HQ, signals, admin, and pioneer platoons, plus:
* AA Platoon – 4x 15cwt trucks, each with a twin Lewis or Bren if possible, and carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Mortar Platoon – 6x 3” mortars, and 3x 15cwt ammo truck each also carrying a Boys ATR if available.
* Carrier Platoon – 12x transport (carrier or ACV-IP), each with LMG (Bren or Vickers). One out of each section of 3 carrying a Boys ATR if available,
4x Rifle Companies, each comprising:
* 3x Rifle Platoons, each comprising 1x 2” mortar team and 3x rifle sections of 10 men (each section with LMG)
BIA had a mix of Brens and locally produced Vickers-Berthiers. No big since they were substantially similar and fired the same round. Carriers were also a mix of Universal Carriers (tracked) and ACV-IP (wheeled). Carriers were always in short supply, even though India produced 4,550 ACVs (armored carrier vehicles, or armored combat vehicles, if you prefer). They were all-purpose and functioned in the role of carriers, scout cars, armored cars, recce cars, and some were modified as mortar carriers, and 3% modified with the LMGs in a turret. Like the Universal Carrier, the LMG was dismountable from the ACV for tactical use in support of the infantry.
Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
RE: New Model Indian Army
That's interesting - they were very thin! Picked up Slim's book, Defeat into Victory, but won't have a chance to start it for a bit.
Intel Monkey: https://sites.google.com/view/staffmonkeys/home
RE: New Model Indian Army
And that’s about it for life, the universe, and everything, with the exception of the adjunct war establishments, like VI/587, II/116, and the like.
In the Middle East (1942), a platoon got 2 men detailed to platoon HQ to operate a second 2” mortar. In 1943, the platoons got PIATs to replace the Boys, but did not get any extra men to operate them. Infantry AT weapons were held by “higher” and when Mr Tank came calling, you would have to get the weapon and find someone who knew how to use it; “Orderly, get back there and get the Boys (or PIAT) and put it up front and center ! … What!? We don’t have any of them !? … Ohhh, $hit !!” AT weaps were something in the company/platoon weapon pool if it was available.
Then in ‘42 the brigade level AT units (authorized but realistically, hardly ever instantiated), were bumped down to Bn level and a platoon of 6-8 2pdrs became an AT Platoon within the HQ/Support company, if there were a sufficient number of AT guns to go around. The HQ/Support company became a “catch-all” for support weapons. Carrier and AT platoons would often be substituted with an MMG platoon having 4-6 Vickers. It was very much a “do with what you have” sort of organization. Woof .. !
Ciao. JWE
In the Middle East (1942), a platoon got 2 men detailed to platoon HQ to operate a second 2” mortar. In 1943, the platoons got PIATs to replace the Boys, but did not get any extra men to operate them. Infantry AT weapons were held by “higher” and when Mr Tank came calling, you would have to get the weapon and find someone who knew how to use it; “Orderly, get back there and get the Boys (or PIAT) and put it up front and center ! … What!? We don’t have any of them !? … Ohhh, $hit !!” AT weaps were something in the company/platoon weapon pool if it was available.
Then in ‘42 the brigade level AT units (authorized but realistically, hardly ever instantiated), were bumped down to Bn level and a platoon of 6-8 2pdrs became an AT Platoon within the HQ/Support company, if there were a sufficient number of AT guns to go around. The HQ/Support company became a “catch-all” for support weapons. Carrier and AT platoons would often be substituted with an MMG platoon having 4-6 Vickers. It was very much a “do with what you have” sort of organization. Woof .. !
Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.
RE: New Model Indian Army
Slim is great. What he did was exquisite. But the important parts of his book are where he details what he found. We all know what he did with the material.ORIGINAL: witpqs
That's interesting - they were very thin! Picked up Slim's book, Defeat into Victory, but won't have a chance to start it for a bit.
It’s important to realize that Slim was a Sandhurst product. As such, his innovative methods were impressed over his sense of tactical appropriateness. He did not erase the board and start from scratch, but used his training as a basis and his SE Asian experience as frosting. It’s hard to understand what Slim did without knowing what he had to work with.
Ciao. JWE
Nous n'avons pas peur! Vive la liberté! Moi aussi je suis Charlie!
Yippy Ki Yay.
Yippy Ki Yay.