the best home rule to restrict night bombing?

[quertice]

Night bombing is too efficient, in unrealistic way.

I'm starting to play a pbem in 1943 (by replacing a player), so I ask to you experts what is the best home rule [&o]

I know these three:

"No night bombing under 50% moonlight, and no under 10000 feet"

"No night bombing under 70% moonlight, and no under 10000 feet"

"No night bombing under 90% moonlight, and no under 10000 feet"

[geofflambert]

I'd be ok with the 10k restriction but I'd be hard to convince about the moonlight thing. It's never been very efficient for me, except when firebombing a city. Night fighters never had any difficulty intercepting.

[HansBolter]

I would not be OK with the 10k restriction. Night is the time to take advantage of the inability of the flak gunners to spot and fly in the range of the medium and smaller guns.

Even in solo games I apply the restriction of no night bombing with non-radar equipped airframes.

Basically I don't night bomb until night bomber aircraft become available.

Unfortunately, my opponent, the venerable AI, does not feel obligated to abide by these restrictions.

In my estimation, "No night bombing by non-radar equipped bombers" is the best way to go on a house rule.

[crsutton]

We are in our second campaign. Basically we just agreed to not more than one unit per theater per turn. That keeps it to no more than three or four small attacks per turn. Night bombing is too out of whack to allow it whole scale but this allows it to continue and add a little flava to the game. The issue then is should the Allies be allowed to do it in 1945 when they were historically in a better position to do it. However, we found that it really was not necessary. Most games don't make it that far and those that do usually means the Allies are winning anyways.

[m10bob]

Onto my soapbox......

"Nightbombing" per se has been completely emasculated compared to what it was in WITP..
AE was and is the culmination of many great ideas and observations made by the folks who actually play the game, then cross referance the results with history books, etc.

IMHO, "nightbombing" is now a tad weak and a true exercise in futility ref damage to enemy ground targets.
The ONLY thing my nightbombers do is force the enemy to put his perfectly good fighters on night detail....

[geofflambert]

interesting signature m10bob. What's it mean, Alles verboten? [:'(]

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Onto my soapbox......

"Nightbombing" per se has been completely emasculated compared to what it was in WITP..
AE was and is the culmination of many great ideas and observations made by the folks who actually play the game, then cross referance the results with history books, etc.

IMHO, "nightbombing" is now a tad weak and a true exercise in futility ref damage to enemy ground targets.
The ONLY thing my nightbombers do is force the enemy to put his perfectly good fighters on night detail....

No

Night Air attack on Rabaul , at 106,125

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 2,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J1N1-S Irving x 12

Allied aircraft
B-17F Fortress x 7
B-24D1 Liberator x 5
B-24J Liberator x 8
PB4Y-1 Liberator x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
J1N1-S Irving: 12 damaged
J1N1-S Irving: 3 destroyed on ground
D4Y1 Judy: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 2 destroyed on ground
Ki-45 KAIc Nick: 1 destroyed on ground
G4M1 Betty: 4 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 4 destroyed on ground
D4Y2 Judy: 3 destroyed on ground
J2M2 Jack: 1 destroyed on ground
Ki-46-III Dinah: 1 destroyed on ground
G3M3 Nell: 1 destroyed on ground
A6M5b Zero: 1 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17F Fortress: 1 destroyed by flak
B-24D1 Liberator: 2 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 5 damaged
B-24J Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 7 damaged
PB4Y-1 Liberator: 1 destroyed by flak

Japanese ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 33

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x PB4Y-1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-24J Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-17F Fortress bombing from 2000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 4 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-24D1 Liberator bombing from 2000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
251 Ku S-1 with J1N1-S Irving (3 airborne, 6 on standby, 3 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 7000 , scrambling fighters to 30610.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 39 minutes

[Chickenboy]

Looks like you were probably overstacked at Rabaul, mind_messing. How many airgroups, how many planes, what size a/f, how much air support did you have there? In my experience, bombardment of overstacked airfields has an significantly outsized payoff.

[LargeSlowTarget]

Ed aka IdahoNYer and I have limited night bombing of ports, airbases and industries to one air unit per target. No limits for area targets i.e.manpower. While this renders my night bombing of air bases impotent, Ed has a Wellington squadron that kills 2 - 5 planes each night on the ground - even with only 2% moonlight. Do they have radar in May 42?

[tiemanjw]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Looks like you were probably overstacked at Rabaul, mind_messing. How many airgroups, how many planes, what size a/f, how much air support did you have there? In my experience, bombardment of overstacked airfields has an significantly outsized payoff.

not to mention good weather and the bombers came in very low (2k ft). I get a nice result like that once and again, but most of the time they don't do much.

[mind_messing]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Looks like you were probably overstacked at Rabaul, mind_messing. How many airgroups, how many planes, what size a/f, how much air support did you have there? In my experience, bombardment of overstacked airfields has an significantly outsized payoff.

Size 9 AF, 11 (?) air groups more air support than needed. Flak, barrage balloons, night fighters, the works.

That was only the bloodiest raid - there was one where 6 Liberators managed to destroy 13 or so planes on the deck.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Ed aka IdahoNYer and I have limited night bombing of ports, airbases and industries to one air unit per target. No limits for area targets i.e.manpower. While this renders my night bombing of air bases impotent, Ed has a Wellington squadron that kills 2 - 5 planes each night on the ground - even with only 2% moonlight. Do they have radar in May 42?

Don't know the exact date but I'm pretty sure the radar equipped Wellingtons (the GR VIII) appears well after 5/42.

I'm using one squadron of them to night bomb Bangkok in May 43 and I had them training for a month or so before using them so they only came in in early '43.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

Looks like you were probably overstacked at Rabaul, mind_messing. How many airgroups, how many planes, what size a/f, how much air support did you have there? In my experience, bombardment of overstacked airfields has an significantly outsized payoff.

Size 9 AF, 11 (?) air groups more air support than needed. Flak, barrage balloons, night fighters, the works.

That was only the bloodiest raid - there was one where 6 Liberators managed to destroy 13 or so planes on the deck.

Against the AI I experimented ion some of my early games to see how devastating NB could be at low altitudes.

At low level it IS devastating. Try an experiment with a group (48) of B17s on night port bombing at 1k....its incredible.

I'd say the 2k altitude was what made that particular NB run so effective.

I'm now night bombing with only radar equipped bombers at altitudes like 10-15k and getting dismal results.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

interesting signature m10bob. What's it mean, Alles verboten? [:'(]

Bob, are you an German WW2 re-enactor, or were? You remind me of an old shooting buddy from Fort Indiantown Gap I once knew a decade ago.[:)]

[Lowpe]

To minimize night bombing you must do it holistically: 10 percent cap with floatplanes, good AA, reasonable forts, NF is you have them, but don't neglect the floats. Bad weather helps even more, and low moonlight helps a little. Don't overstack your runways.

Balloons are tough on Japanese bombers, but don't seem to do too much on Allied 4Es especially if the pilots are good.

Finally pray.

[AW1Steve]

One point to make.....not that I agree that the game is borked, it isn't. But if there is a flaw , it works both ways. So while the allies are trying to put a couple of squadrons of Lysanders and Dutch B-10's over head , the Japanese player can put a couple of hundred of Betties over head. If this is a flaw , then it's a two sided flaw , and there fore equal. There are a heck of a lot of other flaws that will never get addressed (except "shut up and play") like the non-functioning atomic bomb. Or the fact that in the game I always see Zero's escorting Army bombers , something that rarely happened in real life , as the IJN and the IJA had such a poor relationship they worked together only when absolutely necessary.

Or the fact that both sides are unified like a well oiled machine. Like that's ever going to happen in real life. Seriously folks , are the flaws really so bad that we have to resort to LAWFARE? Rant over........[:D]

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

One point to make.....not that I agree that the game is borked, it isn't. But if there is a flaw , it works both ways. So while the allies are trying to put a couple of squadrons of Lysanders and Dutch B-10's over head , the Japanese player can put a couple of hundred of Betties over head. If this is a flaw , then it's a two sided flaw , and there fore equal. There are a heck of a lot of other flaws that will never get addressed (except "shut up and play") like the non-functioning atomic bomb. Or the fact that in the game I always see Zero's escorting Army bombers , something that rarely happened in real life , as the IJN and the IJA had such a poor relationship they worked together only when absolutely necessary.

Or the fact that both sides are unified like a well oiled machine. Like that's ever going to happen in real life. Seriously folks , are the flaws really so bad that we have to resort to LAWFARE? Rant over........[:D]

I think you meant Flawfare? [;)]

[AW1Steve]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

One point to make.....not that I agree that the game is borked, it isn't. But if there is a flaw , it works both ways. So while the allies are trying to put a couple of squadrons of Lysanders and Dutch B-10's over head , the Japanese player can put a couple of hundred of Betties over head. If this is a flaw , then it's a two sided flaw , and there fore equal. There are a heck of a lot of other flaws that will never get addressed (except "shut up and play") like the non-functioning atomic bomb. Or the fact that in the game I always see Zero's escorting Army bombers , something that rarely happened in real life , as the IJN and the IJA had such a poor relationship they worked together only when absolutely necessary.

Or the fact that both sides are unified like a well oiled machine. Like that's ever going to happen in real life. Seriously folks , are the flaws really so bad that we have to resort to LAWFARE? Rant over........[:D]

I think you meant Flawfare? [;)]

No , in the current military vernacular is for a country (usually a small unethical country) to tie a bigger country (Usually the USA) up in international court , or some international organization , in a blatant attempt to basically require the larger country to "tie one arm behind it's back" by making some weapon or tactic illegal. But I do appreciate your pun! [:D]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

interesting signature m10bob. What's it mean, Alles verboten? [:'(]

No...Our friend at Tyler Designs used to host all those great "Fanboy" signatures and when the site went down, I lost the pic of my "B-19 Fanboy" signature..I have been too lazy to get another..Old timers remember that old signature...LOL

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

interesting signature m10bob. What's it mean, Alles verboten? [:'(]

Bob, are you an German WW2 re-enactor, or were? You remind me of an old shooting buddy from Fort Indiantown Gap I once knew a decade ago.[:)]

I am not he..I am 65..lived at Palmyra PA (right next to Hershey) when dad was in the army..I suspect you saw one of my other forum postings in which I mentioned his friendship with Dick Winters while we lived there..
My little brother was born at Indiantown Gap..

Shooting?..Of course dad made sure my brother and I were dead shots by the age of 6, (pellet guns and our toy soldiers)..
Have been involved with firearms ever since..
NRA..................