Too much Iron in my Diet - Mundy(A) vs KenchiSulla (J)

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: Mundy
I'm open to suggestions for lower hanging fruit. The Gilberts don't look ready to take yet, as well as the Marshalls. Someplace like Diego Garcia may be promising, but intel says he's using at least fragments of a division to hold it.

Well what about Horn Island? What's the situation like in NW OZ? Either way, I think you are probably 6 months away from being able to launch a successful amphibious campaign in the Pacific. North Pacific is the exception because there is no depth behind Adak; everywhere else you would land there are supporting Japanese bases to the rear which can not be so easily suppressed.

ORIGINAL: Mundy
I have a lot of fighters at Suva which can ferry to Noumea once it's taken. I don't know how much I want to weaken Suva at this point, though.

I'm sure you can. But what good are those fighters going to be when the Japanese bombard the base with cruisers at night? There are going to be stuck damaged on the airfields. To launch a successful invasion you don't just have to take the base; you need to defend it. Retaking isolated Allied bases after heavy suppression isn't a difficult task for Japan even in 43.

What I'd really like to see you do in this game right now is take control of the air situation in New Guinea. Let's see those P-38s and F4Us knocking down Japanese fighters and 4E cleaning up the mess with favorable kill ratios. Once you have established some dominance there I believe it start opening up other adventures for you.

There may be some opportunities open to the Allies because both players were green when they started, as evidenced by the fact that in May 1942 the Japanese have not secured the Solomons yet. I have lost track of what has and has not been taken in various areas, but I have the impression that it has been somewhat haphazard, with lots of minor bases left in Allied hands and scattered among the Japanese conquests.

Some players have inserted engineers into these bases and built port/airfield ALMOST to level one and added some forts so that they can make the base operational the moment it becomes part of the front line. They use APDs, subs, PBYs, barges, just about anything to pull off these sneak developments. About 75% of the time these moves are successful and the other 25% they is discovered and have to evacuate/retreat or accept the loss of troops that were expendable anyway. It really does accelerate the Allied steamroller once it gets moving in the direction of these bases.

Getting back to my suggestion about Christmas Island IO, I looked at the map and it is the Cocos Islands I was thinking of - far enough away from Sumatra and Java to defend against air attack if fighters are put there. The Japanese can still bombard but it is a distraction from their own plans if the Allies have it. It is also a good place for the Allies to ambush a bombardment force because there is nothing west of there to base search aircraft on.

[Mundy]

Cocos could be tempting.
 
I have spare base forces in Australia.  I'd probably want to bring along a USMC defense battalion, though they've got a far enough travel to get there.  Aussie commandos could probably do the actual taking.  Two CVEs with pure fighter loads would probably cover thing okay.  Lots of distances are involved and this would take time to set up.  I'd also have to use creative dog-legs on further supply efforts there.  Not sure if a PBY can reach there from Normanton.  Looks like 54 hexes to there.  Geraldton's about 41.  I doubt a landing there would draw the ire if KB
 
I'm probably looking at two months before I could pull the trigger on this.
 
How strong to Japanese players typically garrison Java or Sumatra?  I could always think big and land 3-4 divisions on one of these islands.  Naval air would probably cover things enough to make the landings.  Unless KB's on a hair trigger ready to move with the first sighting of USN carriers, which could be from quite a ways out, they may not make it in time to affect things.  Losing Palembang would be big at this point in the war.  It would take an Overlord sized effort to pull off, with support and LBA coming in immediately after the landings.  I'd probably have to round up every last AKV to insure I have immediate LBA, too.  Lots of convoys after that to keep things fed.  On the other hand, it could turn the game on its head.
 
I'll need to think things over.  I'll probably send my carriers past Suva to Sydney and continue on with the transports to Suva.  Trips to New Zealand  could be made, as I have a few more infantry brigades sitting there.  2 divisions or so are at Suva, plus artillery, armor and other stuff are also available.  Add in a few more divisions from the Katherine expedition, and I could have a sizable force, once they heal up.
 
Logistics runs everything...

[BBfanboy]

Canoerebel pulled of a huge landing on Northern Sumatra and a few of the islands along the west side, but that was in 1943, IIRC. Right now you can deliver the divisions there under CV umbrella, but the CVs have to leave after a few days and you will not be able to supply that number or troops in the face of netties from Malaya and other bases on Sumatra. You just don't have the LBA fighter strength yet to protect everything. Canoerebel took first Cocos and Christmas Island and built them big enough to have lots of HB. Then he moved to the west coast islands under cover of HB suppression of air bases and then onto Sumatra itself. CVs and CVEs were used to get assault shipping and supplies ashore, but they had to pull back for replenishment and repair.

The key to this stroke was that the Japanese were adventuring in both India and Australia, so there was little garrison on Sumatra. He achieved complete surprise with his huge series of amphib landings.

Edit: PS - I guess I was trying to say that taking and developing Cocos is a prerequisite to a shot at Sumatra. It takes time to set all this stuff up so you gotta start early and see what the opposition is as you proceed. Canoerebel would not have tried for Sumatra if his recon showed significant land and air protection there. I think he also kept a meticulous record of the location of major IJA units.

[Mundy]

Well... it is '43.  Just not quite the good 43 yet.
 
I could cover the initial lift over, and it would be a big one.  I would also wind up dedicating some of my CVE force to cover all the subsequent supply missions after that.
 
I think the trouble with taking one of the islands would be that CF would quickly see the threat if he were holding things on the cheap and move reinforcements in.  With China getting wrapped up, he'll most likely have spare units to spread around.  If I do this, I'll have to do it on a maxi scale.  I'd probably land at Benkoelen, as it has the best road to Palembang.
 
Order of events:
 
Initial landings - probably 5 divisions plus lots of armor and artillery.
Day after port taken -  Lots of base forces and Seabees and supply
< 1 week afterwards - Cargo, preferably 150,000+ of supplies.
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Lots of TFs would be involved.&nbsp; Probably several split up ones for the invasion force.&nbsp; Separate ASW, minesweeping and ASuW TFs along in the mix.&nbsp; If KB were to gun the throttles to interfere, it would still probably take 3 days minimum to arrive.&nbsp; Their escorts would probably be very minimal, as DDs wouldn't have the fuel for that.&nbsp; Just like when I had him dead to rights at Baker Is and didn't finish the job...&nbsp; Having something like 10 TFs there would most likely dilute his air strength, too -- especially with juicy battleships in the mix.
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This would most likely be at least 3 months away.&nbsp; My refugees from the Katherine expedition are going to need time to&nbsp;recover and replenish.&nbsp; I'll also want to gather up all my AKVs so that I have some instant airpower on hand.&nbsp; They're spread out all over the map.&nbsp; By that point, I'll probably have some CVLs and Essexes here, and at least some of the carrier fighters converted over to F6Fs.&nbsp; That alone may mean the difference against KB.&nbsp; All my assault transports supporting Adak will be needed, too.&nbsp; Fortunately, I'm getting dedicated invasions ships almost daily from Panama and Portland.&nbsp; They can unload quickly, which is a good thing.&nbsp; I could keep enough in India for defense as he doesn't seem likely to attack here -- maybe gain a few more divisions by pulling the Americans out.
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Canoerebel is good at tracking the Japanese OOB.&nbsp; I just started a game vs AW1Steve as the Japanese and can't even keep my own forces straight.&nbsp; I need to make a map, I think.&nbsp; I'll have to review the Intel Monkey to see if there was any news on the island.
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I think I like this plan.&nbsp; It won't be off the cuff, and I'll have real forces available to do it.&nbsp; My Nevadas with their 5"/38 will be ready by then,&nbsp;too for extra AA support. &nbsp;Like anything logistic in this game, it like altering the course of a six ton millstone.
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Looks like my Nimitz plan is scrapped for now.&nbsp; If this happens to go off okay and I can sustain it, I can probably look at going through the Gilberts and Marshalls sometime in 1944.&nbsp; I'd be tempted to take Truk, which would leave everything from Rabaul, through the Solomons to New Caledonia dead in the water.&nbsp; That's for another time, though.
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Losing Palembang would set the fuse burning on his end.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: Mundy
How strong to Japanese players typically garrison Java or Sumatra?  I could always think big and land 3-4 divisions on one of these islands.  Naval air would probably cover things enough to make the landings.  Unless KB's on a hair trigger ready to move with the first sighting of USN carriers, which could be from quite a ways out, they may not make it in time to affect things.  Losing Palembang would be big at this point in the war.  It would take an Overlord sized effort to pull off, with support and LBA coming in immediately after the landings.  I'd probably have to round up every last AKV to insure I have immediate LBA, too.  Lots of convoys after that to keep things fed.  On the other hand, it could turn the game on its head.

I just don't think you can pull off such ambitious plans given the state of the game. As you say yourself, it would take an Overlord sized effort. You don't have that. 3-4 divisions is probably enough to capture a handful of bases on each island if they are poorly defended but not enough to secure operational depth which is necessary if you don't have naval superiority.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
There may be some opportunities open to the Allies because both players were green when they started, as evidenced by the fact that in May 1942 the Japanese have not secured the Solomons yet. I have lost track of what has and has not been taken in various areas, but I have the impression that it has been somewhat haphazard, with lots of minor bases left in Allied hands and scattered among the Japanese conquests.

I don't have that impression from CF. He has been very methodical at this point. I don't believe there are many minor bases in Allied hands. At least none close enough to the current front lines to really make a difference. Sure it may be possible to occupy and partly build up those unoccupied dot hexes, but as you say yourself they are useful ONLY when the Allie steamroller gets going. I don't think the Allies are close to getting that steamroller going. But the war is still young.

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
Getting back to my suggestion about Christmas Island IO, I looked at the map and it is the Cocos Islands I was thinking of - far enough away from Sumatra and Java to defend against air attack if fighters are put there. The Japanese can still bombard but it is a distraction from their own plans if the Allies have it. It is also a good place for the Allies to ambush a bombardment force because there is nothing west of there to base search aircraft on.

Yes, I agree that the Cocos Islands are a good place to attack. Its far enough out of LBA range to be defendable even without a continuous naval presence. It can be built up to be a thorn against the open Japanese flank and tie down Japanese assets.

Anyway, what about the isolated islands in the Central Pacific still in Japanese hands? I believe you attacked Baker halphazardly and failed but an attack by a couple of regiments + tanks at 100% prep may succeed. And it is far enough away from major Japanese bases to be spared heavy LBA attack; once taken it can probably be held unless the Japanese really concentrate on taking it back. The key of course is making sure the KB is elsewhere or withdrawing before they arrive. Retreating NE into the open ocean of course isn't the way to withdraw as you did last time as you can get ambushed without warning. Had you launched that invasion with better units with more prep and withdrew south or SE, I think it would have succeeded.

[jwolf]

Re possible invasion of DEI -- In the AAR "Road to Tokyo" MrKane vs Spidery, Kane attacked Tjilatjap sometime in mid 43, I think it was May. He came in BIG and stayed big; it was a very impressive and also very successful operation. But no half measures about it.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

Re possible invasion of DEI -- In the AAR "Road to Tokyo" MrKane vs Spidery, Kane attacked Tjilatjap sometime in mid 43, I think it was May. He came in BIG and stayed big; it was a very impressive and also very successful operation. But no half measures about it.

And he also had an edge in carriers by that point after having sunk a couple of Japanese CVs without losing any USN CVs (or maybe one; I'm note entirely sure). He could defend Java from KB attacks. Very different situation here. I believe the CV count is around 10 to 3. Eventually the USN will have naval parity to pull off such a move but not for a while.

[jwolf]

Yeah, no argument on that count. Kane knew by then that he had the strategic edge in firepower, and he sure took advantage of it. I was trying actually to restate your earlier point -- that is the kind of strength you need for this sort of operation, and Mundy doesn't yet have it. The question is how long it will take for Mundy to get into that kind of strong position, which I assume will happen sometime.

[Mundy]

In the short term, I also have 8 CVE, many of which are loaded purely with fighters.

In any event, I'll have Hellcats and Essexes before this kicks off. I have a couple round trips from/to Cape Town to get forces assembled, which is a month all by itself.

Taking a head count, I'm looking at at least 8 divisions plus extras.

At least I have something to work on right now. I've been in strategic limbo for awhile apart from the Adak adventure. I'm grinding him down there via airpower and the extra regiment should arrive next turn.

According to the Baboon, the landing site has no intel whatsoever. Palembang appears to have mostly support, flak, some arty and the amazing 10th Militia Regiment. CF may have cut some corners here.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: Mundy
According to the Baboon, the landing site has no intel whatsoever. Palembang appears to have mostly support, flak, some arty and the amazing 10th Militia Regiment. CF may have cut some corners here.

That doesn't surprise me. Java and Sumatra are not viable targets until mid 43 so why allocate units to their defense before that time? The start of 43 is when Japan typically starts garrisoning those bases for real. And it may take some time for SigInt to detect those units after they arrive. And with China gone, you can be sure there are now ample units ready to be deployed defensively (and offensively) and a fair share will be going to those two islands. I HIGHLY suggest you find targets within LBA range of your own bases; if you're going to pull off invasions with an inferior navy only your air force can even the odds. Alternatively, find targets outside of significant Japanese LBA and use surprise to take the base before the IJN can react. But going after areas with heavy concentration of Japanese LBA without your own LBA to support is suicide until you can even the odds at sea. You can quote me on that one.

[Mundy]

02 February 1943

The 58th Infantry has landed on Adak. Only 64 casualties compared to the 1,300+ that the 87th Mountain suffered. I guess the difference between 65 and 100 prep is significant. We were about equal in AV before, but I've got a healthy lead now. I've also moved in some B-18s from Kodiak to help.

Ground combat at Adak Island (162,52)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 216 troops, 34 guns, 28 vehicles, Assault Value = 167

Defending force 3998 troops, 34 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 66

Assaulting units:
58th (Sep) Infantry Regiment
87th Mountain Regiment
4th Marine Raider Battalion
50th Cmbt Engineer Regiment
183rd Field Artillery Battalion
188th Field Artillery Battalion

Defending units:
83rd Naval Guard Unit
7th Base Force
5th JNAF AF Unit

The first amphib TF is back to Dutch to grab the base forces.

Another CL arrived in Panama. That's two Clevelands in the last week.

Pretty dead everywhere else. I've put up a minimal CAP on most of my Indian bases (they were training). Just a protective hunch against a surprise raid. Otherwise, I'm getting the millstone rolling.

[Mike McCreery]

I like to prep all my units absolutely as much as possible. I look at it like less rest time after I take my objective.

Also, stacking Command and Army HQ units with 100% prep boosts the AV like crazy some times.

[Mundy]

Army HQs tend to be one of those things I always forget about.
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At least unlike the air HQs, they don't care about the commands of who's with them.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: Mundy
At least unlike the air HQs, they don't care about the commands of who's with them.

Well, I don't think the air HQ cares whether or not who is in command with them. I believe the air HQ bonus applies just like the army HQ bonus; you just need one in range. Rather, the units themselves care about what HQ the other groups have for coordination purposes. Which means the optimal solution is to have every air unit with the same HQ. If I'm wrong (and I'd like to be) please correct me. I'd like to be wrong because this seems like a silly optimization. One thing that is somewhat logical about air HQs that I just learned right now, is this:

An airfield can operate 50 single engine (or 25 two engine, or 12 four engine) planes per AF size
or 1 group per AF size. The best Air HQ of the same command as the base which is within range
can add its command radius to the number of groups that can be administrated, or if not in the
same command, the nearest HQ will add ½ its command radius to the number of groups.

That means the command of the base with those air units can actually affect how many groups you can base there! Kind of unfortunate for say NE Australia where you probably have some of SW PAC air HQs but since the bases aren't part of that command you don't get the full bonus. Sometimes its worth paying PPs to switch commands of bases but I think that is rare considering how steep the price often is.

[Mundy]

I've had situations (at Port Moresby) where I couldn't get an air unit to upgrade unless I flipped its command to match that&nbsp;on at the same base.
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Looking back, I'm not sure now if that was due to the base's parent or not.
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My P-38s supporting Adak were only due to flipping Unmak and Kodiak to West Coast command.&nbsp; It's a handy way to make those continental air units useful.
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I didn't mention, I think...
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I have some base units moving overland to Cooktown, in Australia.&nbsp; A cargo TF from Townsville is offshore dumping supply there.&nbsp; I'm at the point, where I could use another base with a range advantage vs Port Moresby.&nbsp; It'll also enable some of the shorter ranged planes to harass any supply convoys to PM, even if they can't reach the base itself -- still 9 hexes away.&nbsp; This is a luxury I didn't have in the first half of 1942.
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The new Aussie division at Aden is on map, enroute to Cape Town.&nbsp; From there, they're off to Perth.&nbsp; I'm also shipping more supplies and fuel to Oz, since I'll have a bunch of units recovering from the Kat expedition.&nbsp; It's probably at least two weeks until they reach Normanton.
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I'll have to check the stacking limit at Perth,&nbsp; I could very well bust it open there and need to park troops at nearby bases.
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I've designated a bunch of units at Pearl for the Sumatra adventure.&nbsp; One new armored&nbsp;battalion plus USMC Air HQs and a bunch of base units and Seabees.&nbsp; A big xAP convoy is setting sail from San Francisco to move them.&nbsp; I'll haul supplies with them to Pearl first, to make them useful.&nbsp; This should take care of my slight overstack situation there.

[BBfanboy]

If you start getting enough engineers, there are two dot bases north of Cooktown (Roosevelt Roads and Coen) that can be developed to get even closer to PM and Horn Island. Build with engineers before moving BFs there to make them operational. By now you should have scads of CBs and EABs.

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If you start getting enough engineers, there are two dot bases north of Cooktown (Roosevelt Roads and Coen) that can be developed to get even closer to PM and Horn Island. Build with engineers before moving BFs there to make them operational. By now you should have scads of CBs and EABs.

Don't forget about Portland Roads either; that's the closest base to Port Moresby. Not sure why you weren't building up those bases before since you were contemplating invading Port Moresby. As the Allies, you should always build up the bases closest to bases you want to attack. There's hardly ever a good reason not to.

[Mundy]

Thanks for that.&nbsp; I hadn't even noticed the dot bases.&nbsp; I tend to glaze over them if there isn't a flag on it, which is a bad habit.&nbsp; I've always assumed supply is an issue there, which it is. but, I guess, that's what building up the port is for.
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Base resources are pretty tight to start with, so I tend to concentrate at better supplied points like Townsville.&nbsp; I didn't want to deal with antiship hits at the time either -- especially with the weak fighter situation in Australia at the time.&nbsp; As it is, it's like a 10 day trip just to get to Cooktown.&nbsp; I'll be shipping buttloads of base troops from Pearl and USA within the next 3 weeks, so I can look at that.
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CF's got over 20,000 troops at Moresby right now.&nbsp; Apart from that, I don't think he's putting much effort there and in the Solomons.&nbsp; For all I care right now, they can stay marooned there.&nbsp; Ditto with Noumea.&nbsp; I'll think things over once I have my mega-army built up.&nbsp; I may be tempted with New Caledonia, solely because it's been inconveniencing my cargo/fuel runs to Australia.&nbsp; The downside would that I feel it would most likely provoke KB to appear.&nbsp; My feeling is that Luganville and Efate are minimally held at this point, so I wouldn't foresee any LBA interfering.&nbsp; I don't really want an ugly slog through the Solomons at this point.
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I have my big plans, but something to rehearse on may be good.&nbsp; Regardless, it'll be a few months before I make any move.
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PM's in a defensive posture.&nbsp; He sees my ships at&nbsp;Cooktown but hasn't done anything about it.&nbsp; Just Nicks and maybe search planes as far as I can tell.
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I've got a bunch of xAPs/xAKs at Brisbane which I'm tempted to ship out east, but if I recall correctly, they're all the shorter ranged variety.&nbsp; Along with this, with the big influx of shipping which will be bound for Australia, I'll be taxing the fuel reserves there, so I need to get more fuel sent in.&nbsp; Cape Town's just got enough for itself right now, so it's either the US or a honking long route from Aden, and even then, I'll have to worry about rogue raiders on the route.&nbsp; As it is, I've had oilers accompanying the transports to avoid hitting the bases too hard fuel-wise.
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I want to wrap up Adak quickly.&nbsp; I'm a day or two from finishing them, as I had 2-1 on the last attack.&nbsp; The bombers hit the combat squads pretty hard last turn, which helped.&nbsp; I'll most likely expand west along the Aleutians, but I'll just use my Seattle based regular transport to do this without the big Navy presence like this one.&nbsp; I'll see if I have any bombers left in the States to send over.&nbsp; I'm sure if I make it to Attu, CF will start sweating the north a bit.&nbsp; My combat forces at Adak and Dutch Harbor should be sufficient to wrap up this theatre.&nbsp; At a minimum, it'll ease my ability to keep subs near Japan.
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[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

If you start getting enough engineers, there are two dot bases north of Cooktown (Roosevelt Roads and Coen) that can be developed to get even closer to PM and Horn Island. Build with engineers before moving BFs there to make them operational. By now you should have scads of CBs and EABs.

Don't forget about Portland Roads either; that's the closest base to Port Moresby. Not sure why you weren't building up those bases before since you were contemplating invading Port Moresby. As the Allies, you should always build up the bases closest to bases you want to attack. There's hardly ever a good reason not to.

D'OH! Brain Fart again. Roosevelt Roads is in Puerto Rico. Portland Roads is the one I meant!

[BBfanboy]

Yeah, with 20,000 troops at Adak you might be able to isolate them by taking Merauke and Milne Bay, then move up the N. Coast of New Guinea and up the Solomons. He would try to evacuate some cadres of the troops by Mavis or Fast Transport TF so you would have to have good air coverage to inhibit that.

Unless you are playing the reduced cargo load mod, you should be able to load up Australia with enough supply that some will flow past Cooktown. Building up the bases south of there will increase the supply flow too. You should not have to send ships to Portland Roads until after you get superiority. Fighters at Coen can help a lot with that. Trouble with all this stuff is you need to get it started six months or more before you need the base!