Lend Lease

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DOCUP
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Lend Lease

Post by DOCUP »

Anybody got online sites about Lend Lease materials? I have looked up and found some but most of it is to Russia. I didn't know that England did Lend Lease also. Got to love how this game educates you.

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RE: Lend Lease

Post by wdolson »

Lend Lease was devised primarily for the UK. The US initially only accepted gold for war material, but when the UK and other Allies started running out of gold, Roosevelt came up with lend lease.

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RE: Lend Lease

Post by JeffroK »

There was also "Reverse" Lend Lease where US "paid" for goods, food & services which was credited against the LL account.

Lend-Lease arrangements allowed for the transfer of war supplies, including food, machinery, and services, to nations whose defence was considered vital to the defence of the United States in World War II. The Lend-Lease Act was passed by the U.S. Congress in 1941. It gave the President of the United States the power to sell, transfer, lend, or lease such war materials. The President was to set the terms for aid; repayment was to be “in kind or property, or any other direct or indirect benefit which the President deems satisfactory.” Harry L. Hopkins was appointed in March 1941 to administer Lend-Lease. He was replaced in July by Edward R. Stettinius, Jr., who headed the Office of Lend-Lease Administration, set up in October 1941. In September 1943, Lend-Lease was incorporated into the Foreign Economic Administration under Leo T. Crowley.

In September 1945, it was transferred to the Department of State. Lend-Lease was originally intended for China and countries of the British Empire. In November 1941, the USSR was included.

http://www.ozatwar.com/usarmy/lendlease.htm
In 1942, a reciprocal aid agreement of the United States with Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand, and the Free French was announced. Under its terms a “reverse lend-lease” was effected, whereby goods, services, shipping, and military installations were given to American forces overseas. Other nations in which U.S. forces were stationed subsequently adhered to the agreement. On 21 August 1945, President Truman announced the end of Lend-Lease aid.

Total lend-lease aid exceeded $50 billion, of which the British Commonwealth received some $31 billion and the USSR received over $11 billion. Within 15 years after the termination of lend-lease, settlements were made with most of the countries that had received aid.
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RE: Lend Lease

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RE: Lend Lease

Post by wdolson »

The US also got Spitfires, Beaufighters, and Mosquitoes via reverse lend lease.

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RE: Lend Lease

Post by m10bob »

The most famous case of Lend Lease to the U.K. were the 50 mothballed WW1 era destroyers which were put to good use protecting convoys.
In return, U.S. troops were "allowed" to deploy in Iceland,(which actually freed up the Brit contingent which had been there to prevent possible Nazi occupation).

A movie was made about this called "The Gift Horse", IIRC..

Lend Lease was created by FDR and Mr Churchill because prior to Pearl Harbor, the citizenry of the U.S. were isolationists. FDR had to make every attempt to appease his citizens by pointing out every possible "good" that came from helping the U.K.
Even his speech suggesting one should lend their neighbor a hose to fight a fire was not sufficient.

In Lend Lease the U.K received many Thompson SMG's and Colt M1911a1 handguns, and Marmon Harrington armoured cars, (assembled in Indianapolis..)
Lockheed Hudsons,Martin Baltimores, etc were also acquired this way.

I recommend a book called "A MAN CALLED INTREPID" for an astounding tale of this period, and the great men and women who kept the world free, clandestinely.

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/~le20j/interve ... erWar.html



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RE: Lend Lease

Post by Symon »

A bit of touch for JeffK and the other Aussies. Australia built an absolutely poop hot, light weight, early air warning radar system. It was so good, that it was sold back to the US under reverse lend-lease and SWPac bought a ton of them. Don't think for a minute that the US ran the technology. Ciao. JWE
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by crsutton »

Actually, the US got the much better deal the bargain. The 50 old DDs were not considered much of a gain by the Brits as the arrived in pitiful shape and most required a complete overhaul tying up British yards that have could been put to better use. Their impact in the North Atlantic proved to be minimal as they were very short legged and had poor sea handling ability in heavy seas. They were considered a more of a liability in any sort of endeavor that involved them in deep water.

"We have so far only been able to bring a few of your fifty destroyers into action on account of the many defects which they naturally develop when exposed to Atlantic weather after having been laid up so long." Churchill.

FDR sort of made up for it by eventually leasing the ten Lake class Coast Guard vessels to the British which turned out to be very good escort vessels and served through the war. Three were lost in action.
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by Sauvequipeut »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Actually, the US got the much better deal the bargain. The 50 old DDs were not considered much of a gain by the Brits as the arrived in pitiful shape and most required a complete overhaul tying up British yards that have could been put to better use. Their impact in the North Atlantic proved to be minimal as they were very short legged and had poor sea handling ability in heavy seas. They were considered a more of a liability in any sort of endeavor that involved them in deep water.

"We have so far only been able to bring a few of your fifty destroyers into action on account of the many defects which they naturally develop when exposed to Atlantic weather after having been laid up so long." Churchill.

FDR sort of made up for it by eventually leasing the ten Lake class Coast Guard vessels to the British which turned out to be very good escort vessels and served through the war. Three were lost in action.


Brings to mind the remark made by a British Naval officer after the St Nazaire Raid - in effect, that the use of HMS Campbeltown as a floating bomb was the best idea for using a LL destroyer that anyone had come up with.
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by AW1Steve »

It's funny that the UK found those destroyers to be so useless.....the USN certainly would use everyone it could get. What always blew my mind was the 1st thing the RN did was not upgrade the systems or weapons fit, but cut away the enclosed bridges to an open model. [X(] Life doesn't suck enough in the North Atlantic....hey wait! We can make it suck even more! [:D]

The USA and the UK came up with many way's to help the UK stay in the fight..one that always surprise me was an "entry tax" of $250 on every single US person that landed in the UK. [X(] NOW THAT'S creative finance! [:D]
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

It's funny that the UK found those destroyers to be so useless.....the USN certainly would use everyone it could get. What always blew my mind was the 1st thing the RN did was not upgrade the systems or weapons fit, but cut away the enclosed bridges to an open model. [X(] Life doesn't suck enough in the North Atlantic....hey wait! We can make it suck even more! [:D]

The USA and the UK came up with many way's to help the UK stay in the fight..one that always surprise me was an "entry tax" of $250 on every single US person that landed in the UK. [X(] NOW THAT'S creative finance! [:D]
warspite1

I'm not sure why it's funny - the ships were needed for a role they were not specifically designed for. The RN and RCN most certainly did use them and many were lost. The British and Canadians were grateful for whatever they could get their hands on - but the fact was the four-stackers took time to prepare and were not great sea boats.

But beggars can't be choosers as they say.
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

It's funny that the UK found those destroyers to be so useless.....the USN certainly would use everyone it could get. What always blew my mind was the 1st thing the RN did was not upgrade the systems or weapons fit, but cut away the enclosed bridges to an open model. [X(] Life doesn't suck enough in the North Atlantic....hey wait! We can make it suck even more! [:D]

The USA and the UK came up with many way's to help the UK stay in the fight..one that always surprise me was an "entry tax" of $250 on every single US person that landed in the UK. [X(] NOW THAT'S creative finance! [:D]


I think the point is that we turned over some very limited resources in very poor condition to a nation that was fighting for its life and already pushed to the edge financially. They may have helped but not much and we probably should have done a bit more on our end to prepare the ships. This is not a condemnation of the Roosevelt administration, it is just the times. The US was a Nation that at the time did not want to get involved in the war and Roosevelt's hands were pretty much tied by a recalcitrant congress. It certainly not was not "our finest hour." In our defense, it got better as we got sucked into the war and in the end the support we provided both to Great Britain and our other allies proved to be pretty significant.
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by catwhoorg »

I view the LL ships as absolutely a bum deal from the British perspective, except that it showed a political will and put the US firmly in the allied 'camp' as it were.

Desperate times indeed and they did help, but Roosevelt's hands really were heavily tied at the time.
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by AW1Steve »

I'm not sure how bad most of these ships really were. Because congress wouldn't fund updating all the ships in mothballs (it WAS the depression) the Navy would take a couple out of mothballs every year and completely update and repair them , use them in an exercise , then mothball them again. They never did the same ships. Along with quite a few books on the subject , I also got to interview quite a few "four-piper" sailors in the late 1990's. To be honest , this is the 1st time I've ever heard the "floating bomb" comment. The British had their own cotemporary version , the V&W class destroyers, and they certainly were well used. Considering the RN was using a converted whale catcher (The Flower class corvette) as one of their primary escort vessels , I'm kind of surprise to hear these comments. As I said before , the major change that they made were the open bridges. The USN used it's same 4-pipers extensively through-out the war.
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by warspite1 »

The main changes were not limited to the bridge arrangement. The main problems were as follows:

- While the hull and machinery were generally in good shape, the piping and wiring was not.
- Corroded rivets in the shell plating meant sea water entered the fuel tanks
- Rudder operation was long runs of wires and chains from the sterring wheel and these would jam and break often (the British stopped using this in about 1905)
- The turning circle was twice that of an RN destroyer
- Tiny quarterdeck meaning the installation and operation of depth charge gear was difficult
- Big propellers projecting beyond the ship sides were easily damaged
- Poor seaboats
- Problems with the 4-inch gun (or at least the fixed ammunition)
- 3-inch AA gun had insufficient elevation
- Torpedo tubes would dip into the water upon turns

As a result it was Spring 1941 before most were operational (stage 1 changes included):
- 4-in guns removed
- Torpedo tubes removed
- Mainmast and foremast reduced to aid stability
- Funnels lowered by several feet
- British Depth charge throwers installed

Stage II changes were applied as and when and included changes to the bridge AW1Steve referred to above, radar fitting and more weaponry changes.

As said earlier these ships were needed and were well used - only one ship HMS Cameron - did not enter service and that was because she was bombed and burnt out while being fitted out at Portsmouth in December 1940.

Yes the Flower-class were not great - and the big problem, apart from just a lack of numbers - was that the follow-up Hunt-class proved to be inadequate for the job (North Atlantic convoy escort).

Finally yes the RN had the V+W destroyers. These had the advantage of a better starting point (they were the best destroyers of their time) and although not designed in the escort role, were modified to a number of specs to allow this - including a long range version for the North Atlantic - but that still did not make them optimal escort types.

Basically, both the RN (and later the USN) paid the penalty for neglecting convoy escort/asw units during the inter-war years.
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

It's funny that the UK found those destroyers to be so useless.....the USN certainly would use everyone it could get. What always blew my mind was the 1st thing the RN did was not upgrade the systems or weapons fit, but cut away the enclosed bridges to an open model. [X(] Life doesn't suck enough in the North Atlantic....hey wait! We can make it suck even more! [:D]

The USA and the UK came up with many way's to help the UK stay in the fight..one that always surprise me was an "entry tax" of $250 on every single US person that landed in the UK. [X(] NOW THAT'S creative finance! [:D]


I think the point is that we turned over some very limited resources in very poor condition to a nation that was fighting for its life and already pushed to the edge financially. They may have helped but not much and we probably should have done a bit more on our end to prepare the ships. This is not a condemnation of the Roosevelt administration, it is just the times. The US was a Nation that at the time did not want to get involved in the war and Roosevelt's hands were pretty much tied by a recalcitrant congress. It certainly not was not "our finest hour." In our defense, it got better as we got sucked into the war and in the end the support we provided both to Great Britain and our other allies proved to be pretty significant.
warspite1

Well that's something of an understatement!! [:)]
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by DOCUP »

Thanks guys. I had to look up the cash and carry one. Anyone know where I can find the type of equipment that was shipped around to the different countries?
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by JeffroK »

I was sure Hyperwar had a "Green Book" covering LL but cabt see it.

I'll keep trawling.

https://archive.org/search.php?query=lend%20lease
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RE: Lend Lease

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Thanks guys. I had to look up the cash and carry one. Anyone know where I can find the type of equipment that was shipped around to the different countries?
warspite1

Anyone?
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RE: Lend Lease

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