Greyjoy(J) vs. Obvert(A) - The air war in China- DBB, SLs, PDU OFF

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MrKane
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by MrKane »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: JocMeister

Can´t remember really what I did with the Vs. I do remember sending then in whenever I wanted a solid CAP. They did extremely well on defensive CAP. Might have been a EXP thing though.


In the DBB air mode, the spit V is too slow to be able to stand the N1K1. However it is a good fighter and, against the Zeros, can be very effective.

For what concerns CAP, Erik is very meticulous not to let me catch with my sweeps his leaking CAP...so, 3 times out of 4, my sweeps find only thin air...


Even without Symon's a/c update. Spit V it will not stand against N1K1. It ability to fight as equal or with advantage is ending on Tojo, Tony and Zero lines. Lack of range and to small units eliminate it form offensive role either.

Good to hear your game is progressing well Nicola. Your opponent make some progress, but this is no any major success. Good tactic on your side, oil field are more important than some jungle sides in middle of pacific.

I see you have serious stand in Finshhafen, how about site north of Lea (AF lvl 9), don't remember name but it was major allied base during WW2.

Can you leak some information about your AF-bases defending Sumatra ? I mean those bases with range to prevent allied landing on north end of Island.
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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

July 25-28, 1943

Erik responds to my Netties raid at Attu immediately placing 50 planes on CAP, but I don't eat the bait and my netties are back to Nav Search at Diego. Now at Diego there are also some fighters[;)]

Marshalls: Kwajalein is attacked for 4 days in a row by 200 2Es and 50 4Es and, on the 28th, another American Infantry regiment is unloaded, with 3 BBs covering and bombing. Now hope to hold. Troops are completely distrupted.

SOPAC: here's is where the action takes place.

On the 25th, we spotted a large fleet loading or unloading at Buin. BBs are spotted too. We decided to give at a go.
Franks and Georges to sweep, 2 D4Y1s groups, 2 Lily DB groups, 1 Jill sentai, escorted by 3 Zero/OScars sentais.

The day is cloudy over Buin. The Franks arrive first (miracle) and they found nearly 200 fighters on LRCAP from all the nearby allied bases. Hellcats, Corsairs, Wildcats, Spits and P-38s. The best the allied can field nowdays.
The Franks do pretty well, downing 22 enemies for the loss of 9 planes.
Then 36 Zeros and 32 Oscars escort 54 Judys and 6 jills. The Escort pays an heavy price, losing nearly 50 planes, but the bombers get through. Several xAPs are hit and sunk, with support troops aboard (I bet a base force unloading at the newly conquered base of Buin).
But where the hell are the Georges?! They do not fly... [&:]
Lilies arrive unescorted and are mauled...but not before damaging several other xAPs.
The fast Jills are the last to arrive... and they do hit hard even if unescorted.
Several more uncoordinated attacks are conducted for no other gain.

Losses are heavy. 195 planes. 50 Judys, 40 Jills, 20 Lilies and 55 Zeros/Oscars.
The allies must have lost at least 6 or 7 xAPs, with several more damaged.
Not bad. could have been better if the Goerges had done their job and if the other Zero sentai set on escort had taken off.

On the 26th, The bombers rest and rearm, while the Georges are called into the action. They have to sweep Buin.
They do.
And they do fine.
55 allied planes are downed (22 Wildcars,5 SpitVs,5 Hellcats, 4 corsairs and 3 Aircobras) for the loss of 9 Georges (1 KIA, 3 MIA). Not bad.

On the 27th, Franks sweep Shortland, downing 6 wildcats for no loss.
The Japanese South Pacific fleet sails for Torokina from Rabaul at night. Torokina, while the battle of Buin was in place, repaired most of the damage to the runaway. Damaged but operable, 250 Japanese fighters move there from Rabaul.
We encounter no allied bombardment run at Torokina and the fleet sits there during the day.
The allies didn't expect this and several groups of SDBs take off without escort.
50 dive bombers are nailed and the Japanese sentais can now field several brand new aces[:D]

Cat&mouse game. The goal is to slow him down as much as possible here, without losing too many important assets, while building up in the Mariannas.


In China we have successfully isolated completely Chungking. Now the strategy is simple: destroy as much Chinese groups as possible so to force them to reform at Chungking thus overstacking the hex. Auto-Starving operation[:D]
Wenchow is being bombed by BBs and attacked from the air and ground. Finally a 1-1 and forts down to 2. Should be getting there pretty soon now. This should free up a pretty decent army to be moved to the Mariannas.


Exmouth and Port Hedland are finally being reconned. we are waiting for the attack to begin here.




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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: MrKane

I see you have serious stand in Finshhafen, how about site north of Lea (AF lvl 9), don't remember name but it was major allied base during WW2.

Can you leak some information about your AF-bases defending Sumatra ? I mean those bases with range to prevent allied landing on north end of Island.

That site north of Lae is Nazdab. It is already in allied hands as it's Lae. I know it's a potential level 9 base but the allies already have Buna and PM built up to level 9, so it doesn't really change much.
Finshafen is a +3 terrain with a very low SL of 25,000. With some AA guns, CD guns and enough supplies it's a damned tough place to conquer, even if very close to a series of gigantic allied bases.


About Sumatra, Sebang is a level 9, Padang will be built to level 5 and Benkoleng will be level 9 hopefully.
Not much more. I simply don't have enough engineers to do more.

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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

I'd like to share with you the history of Japan greatest sentai.

The Yokasuka KU-S2

The Sentai, until April 1943, fielded the outclassed A6M5.
Then, the high command, ordered the brand new, but somehow problematic (SR=3) N1K1 George.
Until april 1943 the sentai have collected a mere grand total of 8 kills. One of the less succesfull sentais of the whole IJAN.
In 130 turns of operations from Rabaul (the only base where this sentai has operated), the group (now composed by IJN golden boys) have collected a grand total of 240 kills!!!!!![&o]
Simply awesome.

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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

That's why I believe this Air Mod is really really well balanced only when played with PDU OFF.
The N1K1 is a really powerful beast.
If I could upgrade all the IJN LBA sentais to the George, by now Erik would be forced to keep all his fighters downed. Imagine what 2/300 Georges could do on sweep to a large allied base.
While, having only 1 Sentai of Georges available, balances things out. I've never played a match where the air war was so fun and so balanced like in this one.
Japan has few interesting toys, that can be used in a very limited way...but when they do, they are useful, as they should be.

In 54 days i'll get the first (and only until mid 1944) J2M Jack sentai (27 planes). Would really like to use it in SOPAC if possible. Hopefully, by the time it arrives, Rabaul will still be operative
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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

At Finshhafen Erik has now brought 6 units. 2 USMC Regiments (don't understand why he keeps on using fragmented marine divisions) and 1 US (Sep) regiment. The three new units are unknown, but I guess they are tanks or artillery units. really curious to see how he will do here in Finshhafen. Single regiments shouldn't be able to conquer the place, imho. He will need at least a full reinforced divisions, plus a lot of tanks.
JR terrain is my friend here. I predict a bloody and slow advance for the brave marines in this malarian corner of the world[:D].

The 1st Guards division isn't exactly a crack unit. I now regret to have used this unit instead of the 30th ID which was available...
However the Guards IDs have done a good job in India where they've been used, and I am sure these young Japanese soldiers will cover themselves with glory before dieying for the Emperor!

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ny59giants
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by ny59giants »

Erik responds to my Netties raid at Attu immediately placing 50 planes on CAP, but I don't eat the bait and my netties are back to Nav Search at Diego. Now at Diego there are also some fighters [;)]

Nic,
Did you mean Addu, not Attu??
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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants
Erik responds to my Netties raid at Attu immediately placing 50 planes on CAP, but I don't eat the bait and my netties are back to Nav Search at Diego. Now at Diego there are also some fighters [;)]

Nic,
Did you mean Addu, not Attu??


Yes, sorry. Addu, in the Maldives, between Diego and Ceylon
veji1
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by veji1 »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

That's why I believe this Air Mod is really really well balanced only when played with PDU OFF.
The N1K1 is a really powerful beast.
If I could upgrade all the IJN LBA sentais to the George, by now Erik would be forced to keep all his fighters downed. Imagine what 2/300 Georges could do on sweep to a large allied base.
While, having only 1 Sentai of Georges available, balances things out. I've never played a match where the air war was so fun and so balanced like in this one.
Japan has few interesting toys, that can be used in a very limited way...but when they do, they are useful, as they should be.

In 54 days i'll get the first (and only until mid 1944) J2M Jack sentai (27 planes). Would really like to use it in SOPAC if possible. Hopefully, by the time it arrives, Rabaul will still be operative


True, PDU off makes the game more fun. A nitpicky option would be a semihistoric go between, sort of like PDU 20% on or something, where one could optimize a wee bit more than with pdu off, but not too much though. Anyway this is really nitpicking. This game is fun to watch, I look forward to the rest of 43 : He really should start thinking about the DEI : It takes time to creep up to the oil, and if isn't starting to nibble northern Oz and Merauke/Horn island etc, he will find himself in early 44 still very far from the oil.
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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: veji1

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

That's why I believe this Air Mod is really really well balanced only when played with PDU OFF.
The N1K1 is a really powerful beast.
If I could upgrade all the IJN LBA sentais to the George, by now Erik would be forced to keep all his fighters downed. Imagine what 2/300 Georges could do on sweep to a large allied base.
While, having only 1 Sentai of Georges available, balances things out. I've never played a match where the air war was so fun and so balanced like in this one.
Japan has few interesting toys, that can be used in a very limited way...but when they do, they are useful, as they should be.

In 54 days i'll get the first (and only until mid 1944) J2M Jack sentai (27 planes). Would really like to use it in SOPAC if possible. Hopefully, by the time it arrives, Rabaul will still be operative


True, PDU off makes the game more fun. A nitpicky option would be a semihistoric go between, sort of like PDU 20% on or something, where one could optimize a wee bit more than with pdu off, but not too much though. Anyway this is really nitpicking. This game is fun to watch, I look forward to the rest of 43 : He really should start thinking about the DEI : It takes time to creep up to the oil, and if isn't starting to nibble northern Oz and Merauke/Horn island etc, he will find himself in early 44 still very far from the oil.


That is, basically, my strategy as you know. "invite" him on the longest possible way to get through the oil.
I think he will chose NW Oz, which is much less challenging to face. Horn Island and Mereuake, can be a real PITA imho.
Horn is an atoll, and is stuck with 35,000 men (SL of 40,000) and 800 AVs, behind 6 forts. The place will take months to be starved and could require the best of the best of his divisions.

Exmouth is easier, being a simple Desert hex, but again, it is in range of Port Hedland, which is a very good air base and the allies won't have any really close supporting AF. He will need his CVs to go for here.
The idea was to draw my line in the sand in the best possible places for my defence, even at the cost of letting him conquer easily places like SOPAC, NG or the Marshalls. Where there are a lot of mutual supporting possible AFs, it's a bad place for Japan to defend.

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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

The other route is the Indian Ocean. a direct assault from India or Perth to Java or Sumatra (or Timor, less likely).
I am working to defend against such a move. For the next months, the real countermeasure, will be the presence of the KB in the west.

And what about Diego? Will he try to get it or he will simply ignore it? He will need his CVs to get there... and I may try to ambush him...an inverse Midway...who knows[:)]
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crsutton
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

That's why I believe this Air Mod is really really well balanced only when played with PDU OFF.
The N1K1 is a really powerful beast.
If I could upgrade all the IJN LBA sentais to the George, by now Erik would be forced to keep all his fighters downed. Imagine what 2/300 Georges could do on sweep to a large allied base.
While, having only 1 Sentai of Georges available, balances things out. I've never played a match where the air war was so fun and so balanced like in this one.
Japan has few interesting toys, that can be used in a very limited way...but when they do, they are useful, as they should be.

In 54 days i'll get the first (and only until mid 1944) J2M Jack sentai (27 planes). Would really like to use it in SOPAC if possible. Hopefully, by the time it arrives, Rabaul will still be operative


Yes, I am afraid that I will have to face this issue later on in my PDU on game. I am mystified at the changes they made to the George, Jack and Frank fighters. Frankly, the stats they used might represent ideal test numbers but there was no way these aircraft ever achieved this sort of stuff in the field. Excellent designs but taken as a whole, considering the poor fuel, poor maintenance, lack of parts and overall quality control problems in construction, these planes were just not close to that good.

Any warplane's performance degrades as soon as it goes on active duty. However, Japanese planes degraded very fast and it was worse the closer they got to the front lines.
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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

Now, a bit of thoughts sharing about the best way to defend atolls and islands (non-shock attack mandatory) like Mariannas in a DBB Stacking Limits game.

What's the best configuration for the 6,000 SL small atolls?
And what's the best for the big 35,000 islands like the Mariannas?

Let's consider that a decent IJA division (not the IJA-C formations) has a SL cost between 13 and 15,000.

For bases like Saipan or Guam, I'm thinking of a good IJA division, reinforced by an Indipendent regiment 84-5,000 SL), an heavy artillery unit (150mm and more) and by some support units (base forces, Engineer regiments). Possibly I'd like to add a tank regiment for each of the main bases in the Mariannas.

What do you think?
What's the best average solution considering I cannot have CD guns and crack Divisions everywhere?

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Lowpe
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by Lowpe »

I thought you were putting a Tank Division on either Guam or Saipan or both![X(]
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GreyJoy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by GreyJoy »

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I thought you were putting a Tank Division on either Guam or Saipan or both![X(]


I was...but am not so certain now.

Tank IDs are very usefull in china now and, maybe, later on in Thailand when Burma will fall.
They could be more usefull there, maybe, instead of in a static defence stance in the Mariannas?
don't really know the answer...

Surely 4 Tank divisions At Saipan, Guam, Tinian and Pagan, backed up, maybe, by a small IJA ID (IJA-C), will be pretty awesome....mmmmm.....
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Lokasenna
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I thought you were putting a Tank Division on either Guam or Saipan or both![X(]


I was...but am not so certain now.

Tank IDs are very usefull in china now and, maybe, later on in Thailand when Burma will fall.
They could be more usefull there, maybe, instead of in a static defence stance in the Mariannas?
don't really know the answer...

Surely 4 Tank divisions At Saipan, Guam, Tinian and Pagan, backed up, maybe, by a small IJA ID (IJA-C), will be pretty awesome....mmmmm.....

I agree. I'd love to have the tanks to contest atolls in particular, but they are just far more useful on the continent where you can use them to at least counter the maneuverability of the Allied tanks in terms of hex side control. When you put them on an island, you sacrifice that major perk. I do wonder about using them on Luzon, though - with the grey roads, they could be your mobile reserve to meet a landing. But usually if the Allies are landing on Luzon, you can't stop them anyway...
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Lowpe
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by Lowpe »

On atoll defence: the only time I lasted more than the initial shock landing attack was when I had about 8 units there, and one of the units, a dinky armored car unit with 18 AV survived undamaged thru the shelling and landing and repulsed the attack thanks to forts level 5 (there was an artillery unit that helped too).

So, I think you want to maximize the number of units and have some type of CD gun present.

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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by JocMeister »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna
I agree. I'd love to have the tanks to contest atolls in particular, but they are just far more useful on the continent where you can use them to at least counter the maneuverability of the Allied tanks in terms of hex side control. When you put them on an island, you sacrifice that major perk. I do wonder about using them on Luzon, though - with the grey roads, they could be your mobile reserve to meet a landing. But usually if the Allies are landing on Luzon, you can't stop them anyway...

Yeah, I wouldn´t count too much on the Japanese tank divs. They need to be in x3 terrain and preferably some forts to be effective. Counting on being able to move them around is probably a bit too optimistic.
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crsutton
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by crsutton »

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I thought you were putting a Tank Division on either Guam or Saipan or both![X(]


I was...but am not so certain now.

Tank IDs are very usefull in china now and, maybe, later on in Thailand when Burma will fall.
They could be more usefull there, maybe, instead of in a static defence stance in the Mariannas?
don't really know the answer...

Surely 4 Tank divisions At Saipan, Guam, Tinian and Pagan, backed up, maybe, by a small IJA ID (IJA-C), will be pretty awesome....mmmmm.....


Don't really know about this. Allied units have powerful inherent AT values in their squads by early 43. Or, if it is just a lone Japanese tank division, it might pay the Allies to just invade with tanks alone. They can stack up tanks quite a bit and Allies tanks should make easy work of any Japanese tanks. Just speculating because I have yet to experience it. Still with stacking limits I think that no matter the units there, any heavily defended and prepared base will have to be run low on supply before a successful invasions can happen. But no supply and it does not make any difference who is defending.
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castor troy
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RE: Paoshan falls

Post by castor troy »

I wonder why your Georges are doing that much better than your Franks when the Franks should be at least equal if not better. Have you got your elite IJN pilots flying the Georges having a considerable higher air skill than the Frank pilots?
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