CS into CVL upgrade doesnt start...

[oaltinyay]

It's now 43/1 and I need to upgrade my CS's into sth usefull like a CVL...

Problem is they sit in a harbor with the right yard size , but their upgrade doesnt start although it clearly states it's December 42. I moved them to a few different places but the result is still the same. Nothing happens, they just sit in the port do nothing all day.

What am I missing here ?

[GreyJoy]

The two fast CSs (Chitose and Chiyoda) needs to be in Tokyo (only in Tokyo) to convert and Tokyo needs to have more than 50 yards

[oaltinyay]

I guess I also sent them there and nothing happened... But I'll try again

[Pilsator]

You have to build the repair yard to 50.

[Alfred]

The metamorphosis of the Japanese CS into CVLs is a regular issue raised.  It has been answered many times before.  Krigan on 28 January 2012 over in the War Room gave a good summary.  Symon, on innumerable occasions (see in particular this thread http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2834896&mpage=1&key=ship%2Cconversion&#2835890)    has explained the difference between "conversion" and "upgrade" which is a fundamental concept relevant to this metamorphosis.  Both Symon and Don Bowen have on innumerable occasions explained why the National Base (= Tokyo) was chosen to prevent a cheat which became obvious in testing AE.  This cheat involved undertaking upgrades of non capital ships to capital ships in most inappropriate locations.
 
Even though it is probably a futile attempt, here is the consolidated list of factors which Japanese players need to take into account if they want to change the Chitose, Chiyoda, Mizuho and Nisshin from non capital CS ships into capital CVLs.
 
1.  People regularly use the terms "upgrade" and "conversion" interchangeably.  This is not correct and leads to confusion.  The terms have quite separate meanings.  Most ship classes have subsequent "upgrade" paths.  A few ship classes also have a "conversion" path option.  However, these two paths are mutually exclusive.  The Mizuho CS class has further upgrades, as a CS, in April 1943 and June 1944.  However, if the player elects to change it into a CVL in December 1942, then only the CVL upgrade of July 1944 is available.
 
2.  Ships can "upgrade" along the historical, real world paths which occurred to their ship class.  A ship which historically was sunk but is not sunk in the game can be "upgraded" to the same standard which it's sister ships in the same class were historically "upgraded".  In some instances, where all ships in the class were sunk before any historical "upgrades" occurred, the scenario designer has provided a realistic upgrade option which is based on what similar ship classes experienced.  The various Mizuho upgrades referred to in point 1 above is a case in point of realistic upgrades made available by the scenario designer.
 
3.  Unlike "upgrades", ship "conversions" are ahistorical options, albeit intended to be as realistic as possible.  To put this into context, both the Mizuho and Nisshin have the option to "convert" in December 1942 into CVLs but historically neither did become a CVL because they were sunk before the "conversion" could occur.  Nonetheless, as the Japanese ship building response to Midway envisaged their possible conversion, so the player is provided with the option.  On the other hand, both the Chitose and Chiyoda have the historical option in November 1942 to "upgrade" to CVLs.
 
4.  What causes players great confusion is that whilst normally a ship "upgrade" can occur at any port which meets the specific upgrading conditions, this does not appear to apply to the Chitose and Chiyoda November 1942 "upgrades".  The reason why this is so is due to the previously alluded cheat.  Accordingly, because the Chitose and Chiyoda becoming CVLs constitutes an "upgrade" from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class, the "upgrade" must occur at the National Base which is Tokyo.  Contrast this with the Mizuho and Nisshin who undertake only a "conversion" in changing from a non capital ship class to a capital ship class and therefore the need to be in Tokyo does not apply.
 
5.  The conditions for the change are therefore as follows.
 
(a)  Chitose and Chiyoda
 

• must be disbanded in Tokyo
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes".  Note that whilst it is technically an "upgrade" in code terms, it is the "conversion" toggle which is used to shift the ship into the capital ship pathway
• Tokyo must have a "Repair Shipyard" sized 50.  In some scenarios the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts at size 10 only and must be increased in size to level 50 before November 1942.
• the Tokyo Naval Shipyard and Merchant Shipyard do not substitute for the Tokyo Repair Shipyard.  Only the Tokyo Repair Shipyard counts
• the option becomes available on 1 November 1942

(b)  Mizuho and Nisshin
 

• can be disbanded in any port with a suitably sized Repair Shipyard
• the ship conversion toggle must be set to "yes"
• the Repair Shipyard must be a level 25 size.  Again, do not substitute either a Naval Shipyard or Merchant Shipyard.
• the option becomes available on 1 December 1942

 
6.  Effects of the change
 

• all four ships will be offline for 300 days
• the four new CVLs have a 30 aircraft carrying capacity
• if the original organic floatplane air units are left on board the Chitose and Chiyoda at the moment the "upgrade" occurs, they automatically convert into a 21 plane carrier fighter unit and a 9 carrier capable torpedo bomber unit on each CVL
• as CVLs both the Chitose and Chiyoda have a maximum of 27 torpedo sorties
• the original organic floatplane air units, if left on the Mizuho and Nisshin at the moment of their "conversion", do not convert into carrier fighters and torpedo bombers but remain as floatplanes
• As CVLs, neither the Mizuho nor the Nisshin have any torpedo sorties
• in some scenarios, the Mizuho gain san extra 2 knots in speed as a CVL

7.  Finally, the Japanese player needs to carefully evaluate whether the change into capital ships is worth the effort.
 
Alfred

[dr.hal]

Alfred are there any other units on either side that can make a transition from non-capital ship to capital ship?

[Alfred]

I'll check but am 99% certain no for the Allies and about 80% for Japan (there are some IJN cruisers I would need to check if the option was given).  But the principle would be the same, just substitute respective National Base.
 
Alfred

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I'll check but am 99% certain no for the Allies and about 80% for Japan (there are some IJN cruisers I would need to check if the option was given).  But the principle would be the same, just substitute respective National Base.

Alfred

No real need Alfred. It just seems like a whole lot of rule making to prevent cheating on the conversion of two ships. And those ships won't be ready until the latter part of '43! Can you shed any light on why this was considered so important? It doesn't appear to be a game changer and there are so many other ways to "cheat" the system that have far greater impact on the game. Hal

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ORIGINAL: Alfred

I'll check but am 99% certain no for the Allies and about 80% for Japan (there are some IJN cruisers I would need to check if the option was given).  But the principle would be the same, just substitute respective National Base.

Alfred

No real need Alfred. It just seems like a whole lot of rule making to prevent cheating on the conversion of two ships. And those ships won't be ready until the latter part of '43! Can you shed any light on why this was considered so important? It doesn't appear to be a game changer and there are so many other ways to "cheat" the system that have far greater impact on the game. Hal

Not just those 2 CS to CVL. The other CS class that "upgrades" to CVL also needs to be done at Tokyo, and same for the Ise-class BB conversions, to my knowledge - even though they are converting from BB to BB.

[dr.hal]

Lokasenna,

The below quote is from JWE in the thread that Alfred refers to above;

"People tend to speak in a verbal shorthand and say they are converting, when often they aren't, they are upgrading. "Convert" and "Upgrade" are two very different and distinct animals in the game. In this case, a noun is the name of a thing. Two different names, two different things.

Chitose and Chiyoda "UPGRADE" from CS to CVL; they do NOT "Convert". This Upgrade requires Tokyo.

Nisshin and Mizuho "CONVERT" from CS to CVL; they do NOT "Upgrade". This Conversion requires any port with a 50 shipyard (and supply, and yadda, yadda).

Do not confuse these two different things."

It would appear that the Nisshin and Mizuho can convert outside of Tokyo.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

Lokasenna,

The below quote is from JWE in the thread that Alfred refers to above;

"People tend to speak in a verbal shorthand and say they are converting, when often they aren't, they are upgrading. "Convert" and "Upgrade" are two very different and distinct animals in the game. In this case, a noun is the name of a thing. Two different names, two different things.

Chitose and Chiyoda "UPGRADE" from CS to CVL; they do NOT "Convert". This Upgrade requires Tokyo.

Nisshin and Mizuho "CONVERT" from CS to CVL; they do NOT "Upgrade". This Conversion requires any port with a 50 shipyard (and supply, and yadda, yadda).

Do not confuse these two different things."

It would appear that the Nisshin and Mizuho can convert outside of Tokyo.

Well that's good to know . So those 2 can convert anywhere, but the rest, since they are ugprades, must be done at Tokyo? Honestly, I don't know that anyone's ever upgraded the Ise-class ships and posted about it?

[dr.hal]

I agree, CS to CVL make sense, but BB to BBCE no! But that's the beauty of this game, to each his or her own!

[oaltinyay]

There is also the case of two Tenryus becoming CLAAs ...

[dr.hal]

True, but they are not "capital" ships.

[czert2]

why it was set firm that conversion must be done in tokio and not any sutably big enough shipyards in japan - home islands ? i can accept that conversion in singapore/honkg kong will not be ideal .

[Alfred]

dr.hal,
 
Re posts #8 and #10 about rationale.  See post #23 from Don Bowen in this thread.
 
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2998693&mpage=1&key=Chitose&#3000023
 
It probably will not fully satisfy you, so at the risk of misrepresenting the devs on their rationale, I'll add the following observations.
 
1.  In classical WITP ship upgrades/conversions were hard coded.  This meant that the AE devs had legacy code which somehow had to be accommodated within the new AE paradigm of keeping hard coding to the absolute minimum and maximising player options.
 
2.  As previously stated, upgrades are basically historical changes which actually occurred.  In AE when a ship is being "upgraded", generally what this entails is an update to the suite of weapons, electronics etc of the ship which remains in the same class classification post "upgrade".  OTOH, in AE "conversions" generally are ahistorical options which lead to a change in class classification post "conversion".  Remember the significance of differentiating the two terms.
 
3.  The new AE upgrade/conversion paradigm could relatively comfortably be made to fit into the classical WITP code legacy except in 4 concrete situations; these being the Chitose/Chiyoda and Ise/Hyuga ships.  In all 4 ships, the historical outcome was 4 capital ships (as defined within the game code) and therefore within the game code they are scheduled "upgrades" which the player may elect to undertake.  But the real coding problem with regard to this non standard situation lies in that only the 2 CS ships, post "upgrade" change their class classification to a capital class classification.  The 2 BBs remain BBs before and after the "upgrade".  There is no BBCV or BBxx anything classification in the game. 
 
4.  How much new code would need to be written and how much additional testing would be required to implement the new "upgrade" process to accommodate the non standard Chitose/Chiyoda situation without opening up unplugable cheats, has never been publicly disclosed by the devs but I believe the clear inference which can be drawn from their public posts, is that a lot of effort (which could not be justified in terms of resources), would have been required.  As it was Don Bowen pointed out the various solutions they attempted, none of which were satisfactory.  The simplest solution was to specify a single location and for the speculated reasons provided below, the logical location was the National Base.
 
5.  In AE, all nationalities have a National Base.  It is the default location for many things, for example:
 

•   Where do you voluntarily disband LCUs?  Answer, the National Base.
•   Where do resurrected dead units arrive?  Answer, the National Base.
•   Can some dead units not be available for resurrection if the National Base is held by the enemy?  Answer, correct they cannot be purchase if the National Base is held by the enemy.
•   What happens to a unit which is scheduled to arrive on map at a base which is held by the enemy?  Answer, it arrives at the National Base if under friendly control.
•   Are there certain logistical benefits available to the National Base?  Answer, yes.

 
In the context of abstraction, there are many things which already have code which steers them towards the National Base.  From a coding POV it makes sense to tie in the non standard Chitose/Chiyoda "upgrade" to use the pre existing National Base code hooks.  Particularly where it was determined that due to the complexity of upgrading a non capital ship to a capital ship class and to eliminate cheats, the "upgrade" must be performed in the Home Islands.
 
6.  Very related to the previous point, is how to accommodate the metamorphosis of the two floatplane units on board the Chitose/Chiyoda into carrier fighter and torpedo bomber units.  It is consistent with the overall arrival location of Japanese air units for these two CS ships to undergo their metamorphosis at the National Base.
 
7.  Scenario 1 is the most faithful to historical accuracy of the GC 7 Dec 1941 start scenarios.  It is significant to remember that the Tokyo Repair Shipyard starts off at size 10 only.  To undertake the November 1942 Chitose/Chiyoda upgrades, the player must first expend manpower/heavy industry/supply points in expanding the Tokyo Repair Shipyard, and do so in a timely manner.  This additional industrial effort better reflects the historical industrial effort expended by Japan in undertaking the "upgrades" of these two ships, than what would be reflected by a standard "upgrade" process.  IOW, it would be too cheap for Japan and allow for a higher than historical tempo of operations if the additional industrial investment were not required.  I have no doubt that this would have been one of the key discussion points amongst the devs when they were considering the issue.  It certainly would have been one I would have raised had I been a party to their internal discussions.
 
 
Of course all the above is only my take on the actual rationale and is not really a substitute for the devs own words.  But I doubt they will answer in any greater detail as the issue of them justifying their decisions to people who criticise them from positions of profound ignorance (I am not directing this at you dr.hal), has been thrashed ad nauseum for years.  Could they have come up with a different solution, the answer as recognised publicly by Symon long ago is yes.  But then that solution in turn would be criticised.  Unlike them, not being bound to an NDA, I am free to speculate in some detail on what factors they took into account.  Hopefully I am not far off the mark but if I am, one of the devs will probably, and quite correctly, chime in to make the appropriate corrections. 
 
Alfred

[Skyros]

This chart may help.

[Anthropoid]

I am positively dumbfounded and shamed by the memory and mastery of detail of some of you guys Alfred.

It is a shame that, there seems to be very little search engine optimization on this old Matrix site, and that apart from some fan-based efforts, there seems to be little in the way of archiving of stuff like this. It only makes the burden on you guys that much heavier when you find yourself answering questions that have already "been answered many times before."

[wdolson]

You can search any site with Google. Put site:www.matrixgames.com/forums in the search and it does a fairly good job of finding things. I do that with any site that has a less than stellar search engine and content is available to the world.

Bill

[rustysi]

Nice chart Skyros, but I have a question? Now I'm playing a stock (yes I plan to use the beta [its on my stick] just not now as I don't want to learn what's new in the middle of a game in which I'm learning to begin with) scenario 1. There are two Japanese CL's that will upgrade to CLAA, but IIRC there's no way to realize this unless you pull into a port with a repair yard. At least that's how I discovered it. I was using them to escort something into Yokohama (?) and when I disbanded the TF and viewed the ships I noticed the upgrade. I didn't see an upgrade to option on the ship screen prior to this, or did I just miss something. Also therefore I didn't notice a date for it to commence. Any assistance with this would be appreciated as I still don't know when this can be started and what size repair yard is necessary.