Postures and allies turning hostile

[Yokes]

I thought I was really clever in setting up some postures, but I'm not getting the results I was expecting. I was hoping someone could clarify how this works, and offer suggestions on how to get the result I am trying to achieve.

This is from the "Closing the Kurile Gap" scenario.

I have the following sides:
US, Japan, USAF, USSR, and neutrals.

The neutrals are, well, neutral to everyone so I won't include them in the following.
(The USAF side is non-playable, and is just used to run a mission that the player can't modify {AKA cheat}.)

Initial postures:
US -> friendly with Japan and USAF, hostile to USSR
Japan -> friendly with US and USAF, unfriendly to USSR
USSR -> hostile to US and USAF, neutral to Japan

My goal:
Japan starts the war officially neutral, but I want them to pass any targeting info they have to the US/USAF sides. I want USSR to be neutral to Japan to try to keep them out of the war. (I want this to be annoying for the USSR player since they know that "neutral" Japan is helping the US, but they also don't want them joining the war. It also forces the player to ID their targets before shooting! [:-])

I have a few scripted events to have Japan join the war based upon player actions and events (lua is AMAZING!! [:D]). At least, that's the plan.

The problem:
I find when I run the scenario that as soon as Japan sees USSR attack the US it turns hostile to the USSR. [:@] So I thought "that's because they are 'friendly', and their friend just got shot, so they are coming to help". (Is that what's happening?) So I tried setting Japan and US neutral to each other (which broke the info-sharing) and again, as soon as Japan saw USSR shoot at the US, it went hostile to USSR. [:@]

So, how do I get Japan to be allied to the US (share info), but not turn hostile to USSR when they shoot at the US? Possible?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Yokes

[comsubpac]

I dont think that is possible. Maybe you can do something with lua scripting.

[Triode]

I think this is possible
as example we have 4 side
1 USA
2 USSR
3 Japan-Radars
4 Japan-Forces

1 hostile to 2 , friendly to 3 ,neutral to 4
2 hostile to 1 , neutral to 3, neutral to 4
3 friendly to 1 neutral to 2 , friendly to 4
4 neutral to anyone

posible problem :
side 4 do not share information with side 1, but side 1 through side 3 give info to side 4

so ASW operation will suffer, or you can make longer chain, by adding side 5 Japan-ASW forces ,as example with posture copy of side 3 Japan-Radars

even if 2 turn hostile to 3 (or posible 5)it remain neutral to 4

just an idea ))

[Tomcat84]

Maybe in the sides menu try setting USSR "Collective Responsibility" off and see if that helps?

Of course that might have implications on other stuff happening.

[Vici Supreme]

Hey!

Have you tried setting Japanese ROE to HOLD FIRE for every kind of contact? The Japanese side will still go hostile towards the USSR but maybe this prevents any weapons exchange between the two sides. Of course any Japanese vessel will then be defenseless against any kind of threat. And maybe turn off Ignore plotted course while attacking! This may not be an ideal solution but you should give it a try. I'm also interested if this works. [8D]

ORIGINAL: Yokes


So, how do I get Japan to be allied to the US (share info), but not turn hostile to USSR when they shoot at the US? Possible?

Is your ultimate goal to maintain neutrality between Japan and the USSR or that these two sides actually don't fight each other (Simple to add environmental realism of the scen)? Because other than getting a short message, the player side won't see what posture Japan has towards the USSR.

Supreme

[djoos5]

ORIGINAL: Triode

I think this is possible as example we have 4 side
1 USA
2 USSR
3 Japan-Radars
4 Japan-Forces

1 hostile to 2 , friendly to 3 ,neutral to 4
2 hostile to 1 , neutral to 3, neutral to 4
3 friendly to 1 neutral to 2 , friendly to 4
4 neutral to anyone

possible problem :
side 4 do not share information with side 1, but side 1 through side 3 give info to side 4

so ASW operation will suffer, or you can make longer chain, by adding side 5 Japan-ASW forces ,as example with posture copy of side 3 Japan-Radars

even if 2 turn hostile to 3 (or possible 5)it remain neutral to 4

just an idea ))

+1 this idea!

Except, I would set postures as such:

1 USA
2 USSR
3 Japan-Radars
4 Japan-Forces

1 hostile to 2 , friendly to 3 ,neutral to 4
2 hostile to 1 , neutral to 3 and 4
3 friendly to 1 neutral to 2 , friendly to 4
4 neutral to 1 and 2, Friendly to 3

This should allow the Japanese Radars to convey data to the US and to their own forces. You might have to run a test to see if the US/USSR hostilities causes a domino-effect drawing first the Japan-Radars in and then Japan-Forces.

[Yokes]

ORIGINAL: Supreme 2.0

Hey!

Have you tried setting Japanese ROE to HOLD FIRE for every kind of contact? The Japanese side will still go hostile towards the USSR but maybe this prevents any weapons exchange between the two sides. Of course any Japanese vessel will then be defenseless against any kind of threat. And maybe turn off Ignore plotted course while attacking! This may not be an ideal solution but you should give it a try. I'm also interested if this works. [8D]

I think that would work, but it wouldn't be as "slick" as I was hoping. I have two different triggers for scripting the Japanese to turn hostile, but I didn't want the player getting both messages, so I used conditional triggers. Either trigger could fire first, and then the other one would not trigger since the conditional check against the posture would fail.

But if I add another side and use its posture as a condition... (thinking)

Is your ultimate goal to maintain neutrality between Japan and the USSR or that these two sides actually don't fight each other (Simple to add environmental realism of the scen)? Because other than getting a short message, the player side won't see what posture Japan has towards the USSR.

Supreme

My goal is to keep them neutral. That way the Japanese forces can act as "scouts" for the US that the Soviets can't shoot at. For example, in the scenario there are two Japanese destroyer groups acting as an ASW screen for an American carrier. I would like for the Japanese to be able to detect the Soviet subs, but the Soviets can't shoot back. Plus I want to make the Soviet player (once I make the USSR-only version of the scenario) have to ID his air targets. (Is that a US F-15, or a JASDF one?) No more hitting the "H" key on every bogey! [:-]

Thanks for the thoughts! You gave me some good ideas!

Yokes

[Yokes]

I thought I would post my experiment results (and the simple test scenario).

Setup 1: (current setup just to verify the previous results)
US -> friendly to Japan
Japan -> friendly to US, unfriendly to USSR
Result: Japan turns hostile when it sees USSR attack US.

Setup 2:
US -> neutral to Japan
Japan -> friendly to US, unfriendly to USSR
Result: Japan remains unfriendly to USSR (success!)

Setup 3:
US -> neutral to Japan
Japan -> friendly to US, neutral to USSR
Result: Japan remains unfriendly to USSR (another success!)

So this turned out to be pretty simple. I just needed to set the US side neutral to Japan. I should have tried that... [:(]

Thank to everyone who made suggestions!

Yokes