Italian Surrender - bug or rules description problem?

[Seminole]

There are three cases under which an Italian surrender check will occur.

1) On the turn an amphibious invasion of mainland Italy is executed, a surrender check is made during the Axis logistics phase. This “pre-invasion” check allows for the historical result in which the Italian surrender took place the night before the Salerno landings.

2) In addition, during the Axis Logistics phase, if any hex in mainland Italy is under Western Allies control and in supply, Italy must check for surrender.

3) Finally, if all of either Sardinia, Corsica, or Sicily is under Western Allies control, a modified surrender check is also made during the Axis logistics phase.

V1.00.07 – 19 December 2014
Rule Change (section 18.1.1) - Italy will never surrender prior to August 1943. In August 1943, the German garrison value in Italy is never divided by 4 when determining Italian surrender.

My question: I have a situation where the Italians surrendered the first week of August (turn 6), but the check was done without any of the three conditions being met. Is that correct?

Condition 1:
The invasion was made on turn 2, so the change in .07 negated the check ever taking place under this condition.
Condition 2:
On turn 6, the first turn under the rule addendum that a WA unit could trigger a check by being in the mainland the condition should be failed because the two hexes are not in supply. On turn 5 (July 31st) I stormed the last temporary port and isolated the remaining units from any supply source.
During the entire course of the invasion I had maintained naval interdiction sufficient to curtail any resupply of the beachhead.
Condition 3:
Corsica and Sardinia have not been invaded, and I still have the northeastern corner of Sicily, so this condition is not met.

Is the supply condition moot and the rule written incorrectly, or perhaps a change in rules not updated, or is this a bug?



When the game engine (.11 version) ran the Axis Logistics phase prior to Bomazz's upload the Italians surrendered.
Don't see this in the change log as a bug addressed by the latest beta (which I have installed).

[marion61]

I believe what changed was Italy would not surrender before Aug. '43. What turn is it in your pic? If he has any combat units on the mainland of Italy then a surrender check is made, or he has conquered at least one island, which hasn't been done yet?

[Seminole]

I feel like you didn't read my post.

I believe what changed was Italy would not surrender before Aug. '43.

Correct, as I already quoted:

V1.00.07 – 19 December 2014
Rule Change (section 18.1.1) - Italy will never surrender prior to August 1943.

What turn is it in your pic?

The picture is from turn 6. During combat on turn 5 I occupied his remaining temporary port. When the logistics phase ran for the remaining WA units on the mainland they had no supply source on the mainland, and furthermore I had held control off the seas off of the landing beaches since before the invasion.

If he has any combat units on the mainland of Italy then a surrender check is made, or he has conquered at least one island, which hasn't been done yet?

You left out a portion that is written in the rule.

As I wrote in the original post:
Condition 2:
On turn 6, the first turn under the rule addendum that a WA unit could trigger a check by being in the mainland the condition should be failed because the two hexes are not in supply. On turn 5 (July 31st) I stormed the last temporary port and isolated the remaining units from any supply source.
During the entire course of the invasion I had maintained naval interdiction sufficient to curtail any resupply of the beachhead.
Condition 3:
Corsica and Sardinia have not been invaded, and I still have the northeastern corner of Sicily, so this condition is not met.

So is the rule written incorrectly and the supply question is actually moot, or is the game not properly verifying that aspect when checking the trigger for Italian Surrender?

[Baelfiin]

It is possible that the surrender check happens before those hexes are judged to be out of supply. Sounds like weirdness going on either way.

[Seminole]

It is possible that the surrender check happens before those hexes are judged to be out of supply. Sounds like weirdness going on either way.

That shouldn't be the order:

4.1. Game Turn Overview
A. Axis Player Turn
1) Axis Logistics Phase
2) General Logistics Phase (for Axis units only)
3) Allied Amphibious Phase (Multiplayer Upload Point)
4) Allied Player PBEM Save Break Phase (PBEM only)
5) Axis Air Planning Phase
6) Axis Air Execution Phase
7) Axis Action Phase (ground movement and combat) (this is when I took his temp port on turn 5)
B. Allied Player Turn
8) Allied Logistics Phase (his stacks on the Italian mainland are officially cut off from all supply sources at this time)
9) General Logistics Phase (for Allied units only)
10) (Multiplayer Upload Point)
11) Allied Air Planning Phase
12) Allied Air Execution Phase
13) Allied Action Phase (ground movement and combat) (he attacks but fails to retake the temp port hex)

rinse/repeat

4.1. Game Turn Overview
A. Axis Player Turn
1) Axis Logistics Phase (this should be where the surrender check on turn 6 took place - noted in event log)
2) General Logistics Phase (for Axis units only)
3) Allied Amphibious Phase (Multiplayer Upload Point)

This is where I am now on turn 6, those two hexes are isolated, like they should have been since I uploaded turn 5.

5) Axis Air Planning Phase

[marion61]

I re-read the rule and your right. There should not have been a surrender check if they were isolated on turn 6. According to the rule.

[LiquidSky]

Hmm..I wasn't in mainland Italy at all and they surrendered. Albeit rather late as it was late October or early November. I was sitting in Sicily with a very small number of allied units, and never took Sardinia nor Corsica. I thought the trigger happened when Pelton moved enough Germans out of Italy for the check to fail.

I didn't realize that I had to have invaded for there to be a check in the first place, or I would have brought it up more officially.

[marion61]

If you had the entire island of Sicily, the surrender checks start.

"Finally, if ALL OF EITHER Sardinia, Corsica, or Sicily is under Western
Allies control, a modified surrender check is also made
during the Axis logistics phase".

I had only Sardinia in my game with Pelton, and had just invaded Corsica and they surrendered. I misunderstood the rule also as the wording is tricksy.

From what Seminole is describing, there should not have been a surrender check at all in either case.

[Baelfiin]

The thing is how do you know exactly when in the phase it checks for surrender? My bet is that isolation status is not set or is not being checked when the computer runs the routines for surrender. Pure speculation on my part but it is the only thing I can think of.

[Seminole]

The thing is how do you know exactly when in the phase it checks for surrender?

From the text of the rule I posted in the OP:

There are three cases under which an Italian surrender check will occur.

1) On the turn an amphibious invasion of mainland Italy is executed, a surrender check is made during the Axis logistics phase. This “pre-invasion” check allows for the historical result in which the Italian surrender took place the night before the Salerno landings.

2) In addition, during the Axis Logistics phase, if any hex in mainland Italy is under Western Allies control and in supply, Italy must check for surrender.

3) Finally, if all of either Sardinia, Corsica, or Sicily is under Western Allies control, a modified surrender check is also made during the Axis logistics phase.

In each instance the isolated status of Allied units is determined prior. I suspect it is not being checked, or the rule was changed (in the code) and the manual wasn't updated.

It's actually fine in the game that I'm in, except it does mean I lose the use of the Italian Air Force for however much longer I could have kept it. I don't think I could have shoved him entirely off the toe earlier than I did, but I didn't try because I was confident I could take the port in time.

[Joel Billings]

Is it possible that the units were not isolated in their own logistics phase, but the hex is now isolated in the German phase? The hex can show as isolated (and the units in red), even if the units were not actually isolated during their last logistics phase. This can be confusing, but if they weren't isolated in their phase, then the unit isolated flag is not set, and this may be the flag checked for surrender. Were these units consistently isolated for the entire previous turn?

[Seminole]

Joel Billings

Is it possible that the units were not isolated in their own logistics phase, but the hex is now isolated in the German phase?

They were isolated on turn 5, during the Axis Action Phase, by capture of the temporary port.

The hex can show as isolated (and the units in red), even if the units were not actually isolated during their last logistics phase.

I understand - they would have for example routed if I had attacked them again and forced a retreat instead of surrendering.
But I captured the temporary port on turn 5, and submitted end turn.
Then an Allied Logistics Phase would run on turn 6 and establish those units are now disconnected from a supply source - truly isolated.
The WA player actually attacked (and failed) against the temp port hex with his isolated units on turn 6.
After he submitted end turn the Axis Logistics phase would run for the first time in August where Italian Surrender Condition #2 would apply - if the WA unit was in supply.

This can be confusing, but if they weren't isolated in their phase, then the unit isolated flag is not set, and this may be the flag checked for surrender. Were these units consistently isolated for the entire previous turn?

I follow you, but that isnt' the order (I can demonstrate with screenshots, or if you can go back to the turn 5 Seminole/Bomazz saves on the server) in which things happened.
They were cut off, then an Allied Logistics phase ran 'certifying' it before the Axis logistics phase in which the surrender occurred.

Unless I've don't understand this order of operations description:

4.1. Game Turn Overview
A. Axis Player Turn
1) Axis Logistics Phase
2) General Logistics Phase (for Axis units only)
3) Allied Amphibious Phase (Multiplayer Upload Point)
4) Allied Player PBEM Save Break Phase (PBEM only)
5) Axis Air Planning Phase
6) Axis Air Execution Phase
7) Axis Action Phase (ground movement and combat) (this is when I took his temp port on turn 5)
B. Allied Player Turn
8) Allied Logistics Phase (his stacks on the Italian mainland are officially cut off from all supply sources at this time)
9) General Logistics Phase (for Allied units only)
10) (Multiplayer Upload Point)
11) Allied Air Planning Phase
12) Allied Air Execution Phase
13) Allied Action Phase (ground movement and combat) (he attacks but fails to retake the temp port hex)

rinse/repeat

4.1. Game Turn Overview
A. Axis Player Turn
1) Axis Logistics Phase (this should be where the surrender check on turn 6 took place - noted in event log)
2) General Logistics Phase (for Axis units only)
3) Allied Amphibious Phase (Multiplayer Upload Point)

This is where I am now on turn 6, those two hexes are isolated, like they should have been since I uploaded turn 5.

5) Axis Air Planning Phase
[/quote]

BTW, I have since attacked both the isolated stacks (on turn 6) and they showed the enemy 'retreated' and 'routed', but they in fact surrendered and were listed as destroyed on the losses screen.

Other thing that stinks about an early Italian surrender is you lose half your ships for moving supplies.

[Joel Billings]

By any chance to you have a save before the surrender when the units were isolated so we can test it?

[Seminole]

I follow you, but that isnt' the order (I can demonstrate with screenshots, or if you can go back to the turn 5 Seminole/Bomazz saves on the server) in which things happened.

I think we're up to turn 8 now.

[Joel Billings]

Gary found in the code where it was not checking for the supplied state of the Allied controlled hex. He has fixed that and it will be in the next update. TBH, IIRC we thought we added the supplied check because we didn't want a airborne drop up the toe to trigger a surrender. We didn't really think in terms of main invasions getting cut off, but we're going to make the game match the rules. Thanks for the report.