Question for players - radar detection

[jarraya]

Question for the players - how do you evaluate which units/groups may be detecting your units?

I'm asking because I'm thinking there might be something we can suggest to the devs about how this could be made easier to the players. However, before making any suggestions I would like to gather some input from the community.

[Primarchx]

It depends on the intel you're getting. If you can detect a radar with an ESM set odds are very great it sees you, unless the detecting unit has significant stealth capability.

[hellfish6]

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

It depends on the intel you're getting. If you can detect a radar with an ESM set odds are very great it sees you, unless the detecting unit has significant stealth capability.

Not quite. Most (especially modern) ESM pick up radar emissions long before the radar can see the platform sniffing them out.

I suspect Jarraya is talking about when you're within range of a hostile radar? If so, I only really know when I see the bad guys reacting to me - vectoring fighters and/or shooting missiles at me. If I don't see them reacting, I assume I'm still undetected.

If you're wondering which enemy units are spotting your own emissions, I just assume that everyone can see any of my guys radiating.

[Primarchx]

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

It depends on the intel you're getting. If you can detect a radar with an ESM set odds are very great it sees you, unless the detecting unit has significant stealth capability.

Not quite. Most (especially modern) ESM pick up radar emissions long before the radar can see the platform sniffing them out.

I suspect Jarraya is talking about when you're within range of a hostile radar? If so, I only really know when I see the bad guys reacting to me - vectoring fighters and/or shooting missiles at me. If I don't see them reacting, I assume I'm still undetected.

If you're wondering which enemy units are spotting your own emissions, I just assume that everyone can see any of my guys radiating.

Not in my experience, especially for ships. I'll often find that once my ESM picks up another ship the unit just picking up the radar is already detected.

[hellfish6]

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

ORIGINAL: hellfish6

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

It depends on the intel you're getting. If you can detect a radar with an ESM set odds are very great it sees you, unless the detecting unit has significant stealth capability.

Not quite. Most (especially modern) ESM pick up radar emissions long before the radar can see the platform sniffing them out.

I suspect Jarraya is talking about when you're within range of a hostile radar? If so, I only really know when I see the bad guys reacting to me - vectoring fighters and/or shooting missiles at me. If I don't see them reacting, I assume I'm still undetected.

If you're wondering which enemy units are spotting your own emissions, I just assume that everyone can see any of my guys radiating.

Not in my experience, especially for ships. I'll often find that once my ESM picks up another ship the unit just picking up the radar is already detected.

Curious.

[FlyingBear]

ESM has an advantage over the radar in terms of path loss, since the radar has to detect a signal that travels from the radar to the target and back while the ESM detects a signal that has only gone one way from the radar to the target. Thus the conventional wisdom that ESM detects radar before radar detects target, which is often correct.

However:

1. Radar sensitivity can (partially) offset the path loss difference; can apply to sophisticated radar vs. simple radar warning receiver.

2. Antenna gain can (partially) offset the path loss difference; large, highly directional radar antenna vs. small omni-directional radar warning receiver antenna.

3. Coding gain can (partially) offset the path loss difference; LPI radar vs. not-overly-sophisticated ESM.

4. Combinations of 1, 2 and 3.

5. Cases where detection range is limited by radar horizon rather than by the radar equation for both radar and ESM, meaning both detect each other at the same time. Often the case for ship vs. ship detection using any but the most primitive surface search radar.

So for the OP's question: Judgement call based on knowledge of the radiating platform capabilities and related factors. Not always easy to determine.

[jarraya]

ORIGINAL: FlyingBear

ESM has an advantage over the radar in terms of path loss, since the radar has to detect a signal that travels from the radar to the target and back while the ESM detects a signal that has only gone one way from the radar to the target. Thus the conventional wisdom that ESM detects radar before radar detects target, which is often correct.

However:

1. Radar sensitivity can (partially) offset the path loss difference; can apply to sophisticated radar vs. simple radar warning receiver.

2. Antenna gain can (partially) offset the path loss difference; large, highly directional radar antenna vs. small omni-directional radar warning receiver antenna.

3. Coding gain can (partially) offset the path loss difference; LPI radar vs. not-overly-sophisticated ESM.

4. Combinations of 1, 2 and 3.

5. Cases where detection range is limited by radar horizon rather than by the radar equation for both radar and ESM, meaning both detect each other at the same time. Often the case for ship vs. ship detection using any but the most primitive surface search radar.

So for the OP's question: Judgement call based on knowledge of the radiating platform capabilities and related factors. Not always easy to determine.

Obviously radar and ESM is one of the most difficult things to get right in the game (I can imagine only sonar is more complicated). Understanding that, my experience is the same as Primarchx, an ESM detection means you've been detected. I even ran a few Super Etendard vs. Type 21 Frigate in the editor and I found that the planes get an ESM reading almost exactly at the same time they are detected, even though they are flying at 20,000ft and well within the radar ring. Exactly the same for the boat, they get an ESM reading of the Agave radar practically (within seconds) of being detected.

Because of this limitation I don't think ESM helps players much in the game except than to tell you that you've been detected. However, there's probably a lot more that can be done, and I wanted to propose to the devs some mechanism whereby a unit that has been painted by a radar can tell the player what units it believes are tracking it. If there can be some visual way of doing this, then the player can make tactical decisions about where to send units or where not to send units.

I got this idea from a book on SpecOps that described how radar coverage contours are analysed. Basically, an overlay for each radar is mapped with terrain, and therefore radar blind spots can be identified. Then, terrain masking can be really used because the units who are masking will know when the radar paints them. Of course there's no way to know, 100% with ESM if the enemy detects you, but at least if you can tell what's on a unit's RWR or ESM you can decide.

Thoughts?

[Primarchx]

I should clarify that with the right ESM set detecting radars beyond their effective range is indeed normal if the detecting unit is within the radar horizon to the active unit. My statement before was colored by my experience with surface to surface detections where I'll often find that my ESM set sees the active unit at nearly the same moment that the active unit detects it. Some of this has to do with whether the units have OTH capability and whether the ESM has the ability to detect the active radar's frequency.

[mikmykWS]

We've had broken range rings for detection and engagement around known/detected units for some time which does give you a good idea of when you'll be detected or engaged.

Thanks!

Mike

[jarraya]

Mike,
My dream looks more like this:

[Tomcat84]

Are you dreaming of Elephants?

I couldnt help myself, my brain just sees one in those shapes haha:

[1nutworld]

ORIGINAL: Tomcat84

Are you dreaming of Elephants?

I couldnt help myself, my brain just sees one in those shapes haha:

HA!

Good one Tomcat

[Pergite!]

Is that load-out supposed to be in the CWDB or the DB3000?