FLASHPOINT CAMPAIGNS - THE FUTURE

[ivanov]

I have to admit that I consider Red Storm a major discovery among the recent wargame releases. I'm already spreading the "good word" and got my best mate addicted to it. I've been wondering what could be next, given the potential of the system. I know that the "Southern Storm" will follow. But why limit to a hypothetical conflict between NATO and Warsaw Pact? This system is perfectly designed to simulate the modern warfare and there are just so many potential conflicts to be covered. I realize that OTS may possess a limited manpower resources, but I encourage you guys to move forward. It could be a major win for you. So just to let you now, here's my short wish list of potential expansions and I would love to hear the opinion of other players:

- Israeli-Arab wars, especially the wars of 1967 and 1973

- Desert Storm - if it seems too one sided, then the game could feature some less obvious battles, like Khafji or a hypothetical Iraqi invasion of Saudi Arabia after the conquest of Kuwait. The coalition forces would be much weaker and they would gather strength gradually.

- Storm Over Europe or Modern Storm - a hypothetical clash Russia vs NATO in the Baltic States and Poland.

- Storm of Orient - a hypothetical clash between US and China and their allies.


All of the above would be fun as hell IMO!

[IronMikeGolf]

The real challenge is accurate Orders of Battles, if you want to re-enact historical battles or possibilities at specific dates. What was the composition of units at a specific time? What equipment was actually on hand as opposed to authorized? How much was operational? How much would remain operational after a 50 km road march?

Readiness and Training levels of units ebb and flow, sometimes with a predictable frequency (think scheduled training rotations for gunnery and maneuver training, holiday downtimes, conscript groups completing service, new conscript groups arriving to units, etc). This is especially important for scenarios predicated on a little or no preparation prior to hostilities.

This is the stuff PhD dissertations at War Colleges are made of. It is daunting and the material available is hard to find. This is not impossible, ut it is a lot of work. If I made scenarios, I'd have to go with what doctrinal manuals said units were supposed to have. For a lot of that (non-US) I don't even know where to begin to look.

If our community has of gets enough folks with the right knowledge, we could make a library of:

1. Doctrinal organizations
2. Brigade/Regiment variations from the doctrinal organizations (example, 3d Bde, 8ID, 1988-1991 had 2xM1A1 tank bns and 1xM113 mech bn. 1991 the mech bn changed to M2A2. 1994, 8ID reflagged to 1AD. 1992, 8ID ADA units changed from Chap/Vulcan to Bradly/Avenger).
3. Next is to have a feel for how many vehicles in a Bn are down for maintenance/awaiting parts at any one time. In the 90's for 1AD, that was maybe 1 AFV er Bn and that was given priority maintenance before a gunnery or maneuver training cycle. Might be double or triple that off cycle.

The gold mine would be unit status reports for the time period coupled with intel assessments done by other nations.

However, if we can grow or community with veterans with good recollections, we could have some interesting scenarios.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[CapnDarwin]

Being a game system, using open reference data, and being a small team does limit the accuracy of things a bit. Certain data like mid-east OOBs is a disaster. We could not rub two together that meshed well at all. Information is better now then it was back then. So we will be looking at many different places and times.
We also went with an open data system that allows folks to make there own data edits and make new scenarios with it. We also make edits and updates to our data and the included user data copies when errors are found. I did a vast majority of the data work and I'll freely admit I make typos or grab the wrong value at times. So between us and you guys working to make things better we keep evolving a better game/simulation.
We still have a lot of great plans for the road ahead and welcome all of the inputs and support.[&o]

[ivanov]

I wouldn't worry about the OOB. The Middle Eastern wars or Desert Storm are well researched. There is also a good deal of information available regarding the OOB and potential of modern day armies. Anyways, I don't think that the task would be more difficult than in case of let's say II World War. I think that actually it's more difficult to research German or Soviet OOB on the Eastern Front, yet we have been blessed with such a monster, detailed games like War in the East.

[Mad Russian]

We are also looking at a WWII scale. Where infantry combat and the earlier vehicles can fight. That way there could be battles created with the system for any situation from about 1936 through the near future.

That's the ultimate goal for the system.

Good Hunting.

MR

[kipanderson]

Hi,

“Israeli-Arab wars, especially the wars of 1967 and 1973..”

Yup... with the current or near future versions of the game Yum Kippur War gets my vote .

I think one of the in-house team were beginning to work on some scenarios.. did see a map a few months back.. but must have lost interests and taken up another project.

All good stuff,
All the best,
Kip.

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

We are also looking at a WWII scale. Where infantry combat and the earlier vehicles can fight. That way there could be battles created with the system for any situation from about 1936 through the near future.

Not that I suggest any WWII campaigns. I'm also interested in that period, but it has been already well covered by other games, while the post war conflicts are pretty much terra incognita in wargaming. I just wanted to point out, that IMO there's more accurate info/data regarding the post 1945 conflicts, than for example available data on the WWII Eastern Front.

[cbelva]

ORIGINAL: kipanderson

Hi,

“Israeli-Arab wars, especially the wars of 1967 and 1973..”

Yup... with the current or near future versions of the game Yum Kippur War gets my vote .

I think one of the in-house team were beginning to work on some scenarios.. did see a map a few months back.. but must have lost interests and taken up another project.

All good stuff,
All the best,
Kip.

He's still working on it. It is just slow go.

My primary responsibility is testing, bug hunting, and generally aggravating Rob and Jim. That along with a full time job, a wife, children, and grandchildren; there is just so many hours in the day. That is the biggest problem with wargames today. Many of them are made by people in their spare time. We have big plans for what we want to do with this engine and where we want to take it. Time is the biggest issue. Will we have enough of it to get done everything we want to do.

[Tazak]

I'd like to use the game to explore the 'lesser known' wars (well lesser known to me anyway) such as Chad-Libya, Iran-Iraq or Algerian-Moroccan sand war or looking at escalations of flashpoints (see what I did there!) such as soviet-china border incursions.

[ivanov]

ORIGINAL: cbelva
Many of them are made by people in their spare time. We have big plans for what we want to do with this engine and where we want to take it. Time is the biggest issue. Will we have enough of it to get done everything we want to do.

Well, once you hit the jackpot with some future release, the regular job maybe become a problem no more [:D] My personal number one on the wish list would be the Israeli-Arab wars. From the commercial point of view, since it seems that most of the players are from the US, I think that Desert Storm ( or a hypothetical Arabian Storm, featuring Iraqi invasion of the Saudi Kingdom ), could be a guarantee of success IMO.

[MrClock]

Kosovo war would be very interesting.
In any case, I would prefer a conflict actually existed, rather than a "what if".

[kipanderson]

Cbelva,

I understand, I am on your side .

I don’t do as much as you but have been a beta tester for one of the other wargames for years and sometimes, in fact for their latest release, stood aside to spend more time actually “playing...” their previous release.. if you follow me. .

There is not close to enough time even for all hobbies, and then there is real life stuff.

If you do ever take the Yum Kippur War scenarios to completion they will be fun.. that is all I mean.

You all have a great game here.. as others have said came out of nowhere and rocketed straight into the top very top league..
All the best,
Kip.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: kipanderson

You all have a great game here.. as others have said came out of nowhere and rocketed straight into the top very top league..
All the best,
Kip.

Yes, Matrix kept the secret about us very well. They never said one word to you guys that we were coming!! [:D] [:D] [:D]

Now that we are here we are no longer their best kept secret.

Good Hunting.

MR

[JohnOsb]

Well being a former Marine, I would like to see a "what if" Arctic Storm" when Soviet Union attack Norway and while Norway is fighting the Soviets, the Marines do a amphibious/air landing near Harstad, Norway to try to stop the advance of the Soviets. In the mean time Sweden gets in the battle because the Soviets cross onto their land to bypass the Marines and so on with the story [:)]

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Iron Mike Golf
The real challenge is accurate Orders of Battles, if you want to re-enact historical battles or possibilities at specific dates...
Readiness and Training levels of units ebb and flow, sometimes with a predictable frequency ...
This is the stuff PhD dissertations at War Colleges are made of...

I would add command and control as an area necessary for accurate implementation of the OOBs. I've raised this idea before and I'll keep harping on it, to distinguish between NATO's qualitative superiority in technology and C2 versus the Warsaw Pact's quantitative superiority.

Years ago, I used to wargame NATO-Warsaw Pact scenarios using the old Avalon Hill Arab-Israeli Wars counters on the European Panzer Leader mapboards. It was pretty cool but just moving the counters around didn't capture the essence well enough. GDW's Assault! series did. I suppose it's not a perfect C2 system, but it's pretty good at capturing the NATO C2 at the battalion level versus the Warsaw Pact's C2 at the regimental level. WP doesn't get as many command points to do stuff, but makes up for it by using battle drills where commands can be given to entire units - companies or battalions, or the whole regiment if desired. And, TOCs could "save" command points for later execution, to represent staff planning. Overall, that's pretty realistic for the time period and compels the players for each side to adopt tactics consistent with the doctrines for each side.

Anyways, that Assault! C2 model could and should be implemented for this game, and the scenarios should be developed and play balanced under the assumption that FOW and C2 limits are in effect. For the most realistic effect. At least for this conflict and time period. Other conflicts and time periods would need the C2 model adjusted to conform to the various doctrines of the combatants, but that should be doable.