Mini subs

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Midget subs are best used in 2 situations.

1.  On defence, they can be put in a midget sub TF (which is a subset of a normal sub patrol TF) to provide point defence of a Japanese base.  Their lack of range is not an issue when used as such.

This has been my primary use. Once spawned, usually at a detection level of 1, I then segregate the task force by speed creating another midget sub TF. After one day, if they live and their detection levels skyrocket to 10, I disband them back and may create new midget sub TF.


2.  On offence, they can be put in a midget sub carrier TF.  These TFs comprise exactly of 1xmidget sub + 1xcarrier sub (the Japanese have 5 of those only).  They are best used in a port deep behind Allied lines, either catching an unprepared Allied player with no local naval ASW or forcing the deployment of Allied naval ASW far from the frontlines.  The SSX is much more expendable than the mother ship which is why the SSX is sent in to penetrate the harbour whilst the mother ship waits outside of the harbour in relative safety to recover the SSX.

Used properly, SSX impose a significant opportunity cost which is not reflected on the sunk ships list.  SSX also have the benefit of not being produced by the production system.  They cost supply, not Heavy Industry points.

Have yet to try this. I wonder if this tactic can work better with a glen doing some recon in conjunction with the midget sub attack?

Alfred

Thanks![:)]

[Symon]

Hi Alfred,
What’s funny, is that the midget attack on Sydney harbor is represented in the opening day TF designations for the Op-SF scenario. We used the Op-orders and Troms for I-21, 22, 24, 27, 28 and 29. The midgets appear on opening day, where they did. If an Allied player is smart, they will have the same impact they did. Not smart, and there’s a bunch of capital ships just sitting in harbor.

They're a one shot, offensively, for obvious reasons. Defensively, they are an analog of PTs, if you get what I mean.

[Lowpe]

I16, I18, I20, I22, I24: The Type C1 Class.

These are the five stock Iboats that can carry minisubs, I believe.

Having never done it, I assume they need to be loaded (task force formed) at a good size port with ample supply.

[Dili]

I think i have read while ago there is not possible to have allied midgets submarines. Is this true?

Some examples in Pacific:

From Wiki:

27 October1944: The British submarine Trenchant carried two Mk 2 Chariots (nicknamed "Tiny" and "Slasher"). Crewed by Sidney Woollcott, Sub lieutenant Tony Aldridge (aboard Tiny), Petty Officer Smith, Able Seaman Brown (aboard Slasher) to an attack on Phuket harbour in Thailand. They were released 6 mi (9.7 km) out from the harbour. The targets were two Italian liners, the Sumatra (attacked by 'Tiny') and the Volpi (attacked by 'Slasher'), each of approximately 5,000 tons. Both ships were put out of action (their masts were visible in Phuket harbour above the water until the early 1970s when the wrecks were salved). Six hours later, for the only time, the British charioteers rode back to their mothership. On the return journey the Trenchant jettisoned the chariots so it could travel faster, after receiving a report of a Japanese MTB in the area. The Trenchant carried the four charioteers back to Trincomalee

In August 1945, HMS XE1 and XE3 executed a joint attack on Japanese warships within Singapore harbour. XE3 was tasked with mining the heavy cruiser Takao while XE1 was to attack the heavy cruiser Myōkō.
The approach of XE3 along the Straits of Johor and through the various harbour defences took 11 hours plus a further 2 hours to locate the camouflaged target. Despite several opportunities for Japanese defenders to spot the vessel, XE3 successfully reached the Takao, fixed limpet mines and dropped its two, 2-ton side charges. The withdrawal was successfully made and XE3 safely contacted HMS Stygian, the escort submarine. Meanwhile the crew of XE1 had failed to find their target. Instead, and knowing that the explosives already laid could explode, XE1's own charges were also laid under the Takao. XE1 escaped successfully.
The Takao was severely damaged and never sailed again.

[Lowpe]

No minisubs that I know about for the Allies.

[Lowpe]

Had a little experience with minisubs this last turn, and the fast minisubs are able to attack, they miss, but at least they attack. The slow minisubs pretty much just cower.

This leads me to a working hypothesis: Fast minisubs for base defense; slow minisubs to attack docked ships. Not sure how that will work out, need plenty of experimentation, but I have got probably another year of trying.

According to the manual, speed of the submarine is compared to the cruise speed of the target/(task force?) which helps determine if an attack is made.

So this makes for an additional strategy, flood the area with low detection minisubs, and then put bigger subs around the target hex, hopefully deep water, looking for ships moving into or out the target hex. Hopefully the ASW spends their efforts on the minisubs, allowing a few of the bigger subs an attack or even vice versa....waves of subs to overwhelm the ASW.

[HansBolter]

The AI uses them extensively.

I just had one get into Colombo and put a fish in Renown while it was already in drydock repairing torpedo damage. [8|]

On top of that the carrying sub put another fish in Valiant the same turn (which was in the port hex but not docked).

[Hyacinth]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Had a little experience with minisubs this last turn, and the fast minisubs are able to attack, they miss, but at least they attack. The slow minisubs pretty much just cower.

This leads me to a working hypothesis: Fast minisubs for base defense; slow minisubs to attack docked ships. Not sure how that will work out, need plenty of experimentation, but I have got probably another year of trying.

According to the manual, speed of the submarine is compared to the cruise speed of the target/(task force?) which helps determine if an attack is made.

So this makes for an additional strategy, flood the area with low detection minisubs, and then put bigger subs around the target hex, hopefully deep water, looking for ships moving into or out the target hex. Hopefully the ASW spends their efforts on the minisubs, allowing a few of the bigger subs an attack or even vice versa....waves of subs to overwhelm the ASW.

[witpqs]

That formation is too tight. One DC would wipe out half of them!

[Lowpe]

Anybody know how much supply is needed at a port to create mini-subs. Is it a base number or is it x2 normal base level requested supply? Does Naval support squads help? Does port size play a part? I have looked in the rules, but find no answers.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

That formation is too tight. One DC would wipe out half of them!

Oh, I don't know. At least if they are destroyed in this formation you can harvest the scrap metal. Better outcome than normal deployment where they run aground or hit an obstacle and sink for a complete loss.[:D]

[Lowpe]

Supply requirements for minisub creation:

By trial and error it seems you need 10,000 supply or more to create minisubs. Port size does't seem to play a part, although I imagine you need at least port sized 1. Naval squads don't seem to play a role, either.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Anybody know how much supply is needed at a port to create mini-subs. Is it a base number or is it x2 normal base level requested supply? Does Naval support squads help? Does port size play a part? I have looked in the rules, but find no answers.

All the info is found in s.6.2.16 of the manual.

Alfred

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

Anybody know how much supply is needed at a port to create mini-subs. Is it a base number or is it x2 normal base level requested supply? Does Naval support squads help? Does port size play a part? I have looked in the rules, but find no answers.

All the info is found in s.6.2.16 of the manual.

Alfred

I referenced the rules according to the index, I should have done a search using Adobe instead. Leason learned.

Thank you.

[Lowpe]

I thought I would update a little from recent experience from actual use.

Method 1 for offensive use:

Create your midget sub carrier task force with one of the five proper Iboats. Transfer from a midget TF or from the port one midget sub. You now have a midget sub carrier task force of two ships: the mother ship and the midget. Pick your target: say Pearl Harbor, and the sub will steam there drop the midget, which will attempt to penetrate the harbor, and the mothership will either steam away or remain on station depending upon your task force settings.

Don't expect a lot.[:D]

So far I have netted: 1 abandoned; 2 hit obstruction; 1 grounding. Note however that these losses yield the Allies only 3 vp, as opposed to the 4 vp the Allies would get if they actually sunk it with say depth charges. I have no idea if a message pops up on the Allied screen for an unsuccessful midget sub attack on a port. I hope so...that way the Allies know I am trying.[:D]

[Kull]

In my current Japan-vs-AI game, SSX Ha-22 put a torpedo into BB West Virginia on 12/7 (the "official cause of death" on the sinking report). The real surprise is the mini-sub escaped and was picked up for transport back to Truk to reload. The next mission was to Pago Pago where she put a fish into a US AKL, and once again escaped and was brought back for re-arming.

I'll give it one more shot in a smaller non-mined port and if she escapes again I'll just send her back to Tokyo where Lt. Inano can be feted as a great hero and can spend the rest of the war living it up with Geishas down in the Ginza.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Kull

In my current Japan-vs-AI game, SSX Ha-22 put a torpedo into BB West Virginia on 12/7 (the "official cause of death" on the sinking report). The real surprise is the mini-sub escaped and was picked up for transport back to Truk to reload. The next mission was to Pago Pago where she put a fish into a US AKL, and once again escaped and was brought back for re-arming.

I'll give it one more shot in a smaller non-mined port and if she escapes again I'll just send her back to Tokyo where Lt. Inano can be feted as a great hero and can spend the rest of the war living it up with Geishas down in the Ginza.

Hey there just what do you think you're doing. Don't forget the sake!!![:D]

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Kull

In my current Japan-vs-AI game, SSX Ha-22 put a torpedo into BB West Virginia on 12/7 (the "official cause of death" on the sinking report). The real surprise is the mini-sub escaped and was picked up for transport back to Truk to reload. The next mission was to Pago Pago where she put a fish into a US AKL, and once again escaped and was brought back for re-arming.

I'll give it one more shot in a smaller non-mined port and if she escapes again I'll just send her back to Tokyo where Lt. Inano can be feted as a great hero and can spend the rest of the war living it up with Geishas down in the Ginza.

That is a great story! Congratulations.[&o]

Pictured below is the midget, and you will notice it is the fast version.

[Lowpe]

Here I manage to send midget subs from another port to this enemy port...and although there are ships disbanded in the enemy port, they don't try to penetrate the harbor, but instead look to attack a LCT task force to no avail.

At least they weren't sunk yet, but with a 10/10DL they probably aren't going to be around for long.

This result makes me think that a midget sub will only attempt to penetrate a harbor if it is dropped off in the harbor hex. However, I could be wrong, just don't know. Perhaps the DL on the LCT TF was greater than the DL on the small port here.

[Lokasenna]

If you use a midget sub TF, it will not attack the harbor. It will attack TFs only. In order to attack the ships in port, you need to use a midget sub carrier TF and set the destination hex to the target port. Midget subs on their own won't take advantage of that code.