Another dumb question about mines
Moderators: wdolson, MOD_War-in-the-Pacific-Admirals-Edition
RE: Another dumb question about mines
Follow ups.
1. Multiple minefields in a shallow or deep ocean hex are possible. See s.6.6.1 of the manual. Also note the plural used in the table in s.10.1.1.4 and the last paragraph on page 221 of the manual.
2. The minefield graphic is displayed when the MDL is above 1. The graphic merely denotes the presence of mines, no other info is provided. No details are provided on the number of mines present, nor whether multiple minefields are present, nor types of mines deployed
3. Hans sowed the mines from 2 separate TFs on separate turns. That equals 2 minefields. If he now sends in a new TF to sow mines he would have a third minefield, unless the first minefield is completely decayed by the time the new one is sown.
4. The size of a minefield is relevant. The more mines present in the minefield, the greater the chance of contact. As the minefield decays the odds of getting a contact decrease. It is therefore possible to have too small a size that it's effectiveness is reduced to close to zero.
5. A minefield is most dangerous when it is yet to be detected. It is upon the first accidental discovery of a minefield that most contacts usually occur. TFs will attempt to avoid entering a known minefield.
6. The die rolls for contact are applied to each minefield present. A TF may successfully roll a no contact for the first 2 minefields present but fail with the roll on the third minefield present.
7. The decay rates are fixed and are applied to each minefield. A single minefield containing 400 mines losses the same number of mines to decay as does 4 separate minefields (sown simultaneously) of 100 mines each. Rounding up or down, may result in a very slight difference daily in disappeared aggregate mines between a single minefield and multiple minefields.
8. I said that Andrew Brown gave an affirmative answer in 2008 regarding mining rivers. But that was before the AE code was finally frozen. It is therefore possible that something went awry with navigable rivers which would be a separate code. Or that the junction of the two codes is the problem. Or it could be just bad die rolls.
Alfred
1. Multiple minefields in a shallow or deep ocean hex are possible. See s.6.6.1 of the manual. Also note the plural used in the table in s.10.1.1.4 and the last paragraph on page 221 of the manual.
2. The minefield graphic is displayed when the MDL is above 1. The graphic merely denotes the presence of mines, no other info is provided. No details are provided on the number of mines present, nor whether multiple minefields are present, nor types of mines deployed
3. Hans sowed the mines from 2 separate TFs on separate turns. That equals 2 minefields. If he now sends in a new TF to sow mines he would have a third minefield, unless the first minefield is completely decayed by the time the new one is sown.
4. The size of a minefield is relevant. The more mines present in the minefield, the greater the chance of contact. As the minefield decays the odds of getting a contact decrease. It is therefore possible to have too small a size that it's effectiveness is reduced to close to zero.
5. A minefield is most dangerous when it is yet to be detected. It is upon the first accidental discovery of a minefield that most contacts usually occur. TFs will attempt to avoid entering a known minefield.
6. The die rolls for contact are applied to each minefield present. A TF may successfully roll a no contact for the first 2 minefields present but fail with the roll on the third minefield present.
7. The decay rates are fixed and are applied to each minefield. A single minefield containing 400 mines losses the same number of mines to decay as does 4 separate minefields (sown simultaneously) of 100 mines each. Rounding up or down, may result in a very slight difference daily in disappeared aggregate mines between a single minefield and multiple minefields.
8. I said that Andrew Brown gave an affirmative answer in 2008 regarding mining rivers. But that was before the AE code was finally frozen. It is therefore possible that something went awry with navigable rivers which would be a separate code. Or that the junction of the two codes is the problem. Or it could be just bad die rolls.
Alfred
RE: Another dumb question about mines
ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Is decay subject to a die roll or is it an automatic rate of 1% per hex?/minefield? in a coastal hex without a tender?
If automatic more fields equals more lost mines per turn for that increased chance for a hit.
One of the really sweet beauties of this game is never having all the numbers to crunch to determine outcomes.
It takes a LOT of experimentation.
Not everything in this game is a die roll, but most events are determined by die roll and you should assume something is due to a random unless indicated otherwise.
I haven't checked, but I'm pretty sure mine decay is due to a random event, weighted by factors such as whether in a port or open water, mine tenders present, etc.
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: Another dumb question about mines
After four hours at the dentist, semi decade check up, this is a lot better than tooth decay discussions.
- HansBolter
- Posts: 7191
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RE: Another dumb question about mines
ORIGINAL: zuluhour
After four hours at the dentist, semi decade check up, this is a lot better than tooth decay discussions.
[:D]
Hans
RE: Another dumb question about mines
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
From our resident expert:
5 minefields of 40 mines (=200 mines in total) is better than a single minefield of 200 Mines. Of course 5 minefields of 200 mine (=1000 mines in total) would be even better but there are logistical reasons why that would be a rare situation.
Alfred
Link:
tm.asp?m=3543958
Careful with this as there's an anomaly in the code where fuel is spent for each minefield in the hex (if an ACM is present), not just once for the entire hex. In stock this can get pretty pricy fuel wise (and I'm seeing this firsthand at Kwajalein as I haven't upgraded yet). Back around June/August Michaelm made an adjustment where the fuel use for minefield maintenance comes outta the ACM itself. This was done to lessen the fuel bite. Its in the latest beta.
In the thread pointed to by the link I made the above comment. My last two turns Kwajalien has cost me 350 fuel points to maintain its multiple minefields. Now this is in stock and only updated to the last 'official patch'. So if that's the game you play multiple minefields can get pricy for the Japanese. I figure the Allies could care less, just transport more fuel.[:D]
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche
Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
Simple Answer?
Don't minefields exist in actual whole hexes while rivers are merely hexsides? Perhaps minefields don't work in river hexsides.
Omnius
Omnius
- HansBolter
- Posts: 7191
- Joined: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:30 pm
- Location: United States
RE: Simple Answer?
ORIGINAL: Omnius
Don't minefields exist in actual whole hexes while rivers are merely hexsides? Perhaps minefields don't work in river hexsides.
Omnius
Started wondering the same thing.
Hans
RE: Simple Answer?
As all rivers flow downstream, don't any mines in the river flow as well?
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[center]"The Angel of Okinawa"[/center]
Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
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RE: Simple Answer?
Mines have anchors. Otherwise they would drift on the tides at sea. Though they do sometimes break free of their anchors.
Bill
Bill
WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer
RE: Simple Answer?
Mine types:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine ... ne_001.svg
Most common are moored and bottom. Drifting mines are rare, because they are wasteful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_mine ... ne_001.svg
Most common are moored and bottom. Drifting mines are rare, because they are wasteful.
RE: Another dumb question about mines
ORIGINAL: rustysi
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
From our resident expert:
5 minefields of 40 mines (=200 mines in total) is better than a single minefield of 200 Mines. Of course 5 minefields of 200 mine (=1000 mines in total) would be even better but there are logistical reasons why that would be a rare situation.
Alfred
Link:
tm.asp?m=3543958Careful with this as there's an anomaly in the code where fuel is spent for each minefield in the hex (if an ACM is present), not just once for the entire hex. In stock this can get pretty pricy fuel wise (and I'm seeing this firsthand at Kwajalein as I haven't upgraded yet). Back around June/August Michaelm made an adjustment where the fuel use for minefield maintenance comes outta the ACM itself. This was done to lessen the fuel bite. Its in the latest beta.
In the thread pointed to by the link I made the above comment. My last two turns Kwajalien has cost me 350 fuel points to maintain its multiple minefields. Now this is in stock and only updated to the last 'official patch'. So if that's the game you play multiple minefields can get pricy for the Japanese. I figure the Allies could care less, just transport more fuel.[:D]
I am at a loss. Who creates a single minefield - a ship or a TF? If I have a minelaying TF with four ships loaded with mines in it, does it mean I am creating one minefield or four minefields?
RE: Another dumb question about mines
It should be a TF. One TF is one mission so one minefield.
RE: Another dumb question about mines
ORIGINAL: Yaab
ORIGINAL: rustysi
ORIGINAL: Lowpe
From our resident expert:
5 minefields of 40 mines (=200 mines in total) is better than a single minefield of 200 Mines. Of course 5 minefields of 200 mine (=1000 mines in total) would be even better but there are logistical reasons why that would be a rare situation.
Alfred
Link:
tm.asp?m=3543958Careful with this as there's an anomaly in the code where fuel is spent for each minefield in the hex (if an ACM is present), not just once for the entire hex. In stock this can get pretty pricy fuel wise (and I'm seeing this firsthand at Kwajalein as I haven't upgraded yet). Back around June/August Michaelm made an adjustment where the fuel use for minefield maintenance comes outta the ACM itself. This was done to lessen the fuel bite. Its in the latest beta.
In the thread pointed to by the link I made the above comment. My last two turns Kwajalien has cost me 350 fuel points to maintain its multiple minefields. Now this is in stock and only updated to the last 'official patch'. So if that's the game you play multiple minefields can get pricy for the Japanese. I figure the Allies could care less, just transport more fuel.[:D]
I am at a loss. Who creates a single minefield - a ship or a TF? If I have a minelaying TF with four ships loaded with mines in it, does it mean I am creating one minefield or four minefields?
On map, ships exist independently only when anchored in a port. Ships do not undertake naval missions, only a task force undertakes any kind of naval mission. That is the case whether the TF has 1 or 100 ships in it.
In this instance it is a single minefield sown by the 4 ships in the single TF. If each ship were in its own TF, then there would be 4 minefields sown.
Alfred
RE: Another dumb question about mines
Thanks, Alfred.