Rolling Over for the AI (Scen. 30) - The R-E-L-A-X War - Jim (Allied) vs. Computer (Japan)

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jimh009
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RE: March 15th, 1942 & China

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

BTW, there is another house rule I forgot to add. When I play against the Japanese AI, I never change leaders for Allied submarines on December 7. Historically, the leaders' evaluation was conducted after they had completed their first patrol. I know there are very bad sub commanders at start, but I let them finish their first patrol anyway. It helps the AI in its initial operations during the amphibious bonus phase, because it suffers fewer ships sunk by the Allied subs.

Yeah, I never change leaders during the firs turn. Truthfully, I don't start changing leaders of anything until January. Allied PP's are just too few, and the ones I have I use on land LCU's primarily. And even in early to mid 1942, about the only leaders that get changed are those of carriers and the Pacific Ocean HQ. I prefer to use the PP's to get LCU's out of the West Coast/Australia HQ's instead.
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RE: March 15th, 1942 & China

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Yenan has no industry at all. It gets its supplies from Sian/Loyang/Chengchow provided anything get exported from these cities. If you put too many troops in them, little supply is exported. Even if they export, there are several units in non-base hexes around those cities that need supply. Yenan is somewhat isolated so it gets crumbs of what is left.

You could override the automatic supply distribution by upping the supply requirement in Yenan. Maybe you can collect 2000-3000 supplies this way, then switch to normal supply requirement in Yenan, and then set supply to stockpile at Yenan.

The problem is that there's no "extra supply" to grab in China. Even Chungking is barely "in the white", and often bumps around in the orange in terms of supply level.

There is something odd about China supply in this game. I've had to pull out of a few more Chinese cities due to lack of supply - cities that are surrounded by other Chinese units in supply! And the minute I pull those units out off the cities, these units immediately go into supply.
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Mike McCreery
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RE: March 15th, 1942 & China

Post by Mike McCreery »

ORIGINAL: jimh009

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Yenan has no industry at all. It gets its supplies from Sian/Loyang/Chengchow provided anything get exported from these cities. If you put too many troops in them, little supply is exported. Even if they export, there are several units in non-base hexes around those cities that need supply. Yenan is somewhat isolated so it gets crumbs of what is left.

You could override the automatic supply distribution by upping the supply requirement in Yenan. Maybe you can collect 2000-3000 supplies this way, then switch to normal supply requirement in Yenan, and then set supply to stockpile at Yenan.

The problem is that there's no "extra supply" to grab in China. Even Chungking is barely "in the white", and often bumps around in the orange in terms of supply level.

There is something odd about China supply in this game. I've had to pull out of a few more Chinese cities due to lack of supply - cities that are surrounded by other Chinese units in supply! And the minute I pull those units out off the cities, these units immediately go into supply.

There is nothing odd about china but low supply levels. Each unit has it's own supply level. Units are being supplied but not enough to top them off plus start to fill up the base. Remove the units and the base starts to fill but not enough to top off the units.

Also, there are a lot of damaged units in China trying to recover disablement which will suck supply as well.

China is the area in the game where this is chronic and manifests itself. Dump 2 million supply into china and everything would sort itself out rather quickly.
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RE: March 15th, 1942 & China

Post by obvert »

Apparently turning disabled squads into good active squads doesn't use supply, but needs supply in order to happen. So if the unit is low on supply it won't recover, but if it has full supply it will and no supply is lost. I've not tested this conclusively, but others have assured me that this is the case.

Also, building forts in the field has been said not to take supply. I find this hard to understand, since it does take supply in a base, and when I leave my units in China in combat mode, trying to build it seems to me they run out faster than when I leave them in rest mode. These again are not things I've tested but I'm feeling like I really need to do that since they've been bothering me for a while.

According to Alfred's Supply thread IIRC a division (generic average division, which of course doesn't really exist but is a guide) uses 1500 supply a month to do nothing but exist. So quite a bit.

Units outside cities will indeed pull supply from everywhere, but in bases they all only use internal supply from the base. So if it's below the requirement, the unit will not take supply. Be careful in the rough off roads because supply is also 'lost' in transit more extremely in off road areas. So a unit camped in the rough forest will draw supply to it an dome will be lost in that process in addition to the supply that makes it there.

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RE: March 15th, 1942 & China

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: obvert

Apparently turning disabled squads into good active squads doesn't use supply, but needs supply in order to happen. So if the unit is low on supply it won't recover, but if it has full supply it will and no supply is lost. I've not tested this conclusively, but others have assured me that this is the case.

Also, building forts in the field has been said not to take supply. I find this hard to understand, since it does take supply in a base, and when I leave my units in China in combat mode, trying to build it seems to me they run out faster than when I leave them in rest mode. These again are not things I've tested but I'm feeling like I really need to do that since they've been bothering me for a while.

According to Alfred's Supply thread IIRC a division (generic average division, which of course doesn't really exist but is a guide) uses 1500 supply a month to do nothing but exist. So quite a bit.

Units outside cities will indeed pull supply from everywhere, but in bases they all only use internal supply from the base. So if it's below the requirement, the unit will not take supply. Be careful in the rough off roads because supply is also 'lost' in transit more extremely in off road areas. So a unit camped in the rough forest will draw supply to it an dome will be lost in that process in addition to the supply that makes it there.


Units inside cities only pull supply from the base? That's interesting...I didn't know that. Learn something new everyday. That also explains then why units in many Chinese cities starve while the ones outside the cities remain in supply and are able to build forts.
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May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

Update for May 26th, 1942

AI has wrapped up all its early objectives, it seems. With all its shipping available, it has even gone after virtually all allied "dot hexes" in the DEI and New Guinea.

South Pacific

The AI has stopped expanding here. It seems content with the Horn Island - Port Moresby - Russell Island - Lunga line, which actually makes strategic sense.

The AI has been busy building up Moresby and Lunga/Tulagi according to Intel. It probably won't be too much fun taking it, either. And right now, essentially can't be taken due to the KB still intact and running around.

The AI has not made any attempts to take Noumea or Luganville. So, figuring that the AI was unlikely to take Noumea at this point...I just landed the Aus 7th division on Noumea to begin base construction. Suva is likely to end up being the main base for the Allies, however, since it is further built up and has a larger stacking limit.

Stupid AI Raids

The AI is fixated on Canton Island. Large forces, with CV's, slowly head down to Canton, bomb the heck out of it, seem ready to invade it....then leave. It has done this 3 times now. In past games, this has always been disaster for the AI as I'd send the Allied CV's to gang up on it. But I'm letting it pass in this game. Maybe once I take Baker Island - the first counter-offensive planned - the AI will lose its fixation on taking Canton Island.

The AI also launched a CV raid against Brisbane and Sydney. In past games, this has always ended up in disaster for the AI. Typically, the AI would blow its planes and sorties battling the land based air, and be greatly weakened for the fight against the Allied CV's (who have 5 at this point). The result was usually multiple sunken CV's for Japan and essentially the "end" of the war for Japan. But, I ignored this raid too...which resulted in some non-important ships being sunk in harbor in Brisbane and a lot of air losses to the P-40's guarding the base.

Finally, in what has to be the most bizaare "raid" taken by the AI I've ever seen, in early May a large force slowly started making its way toward PH. Since I had tons of shipping going in and out, I couldn't ignore it. So moved the 5 Allied CV's into position for an intercept. The "raid", if you want to call it that, consisted of 15 LB's and 10 coastal mine sweepers! Being such small vessels, the CV's didn't even try to sink it but instead ran from it when the "raid" ended up being in the same hex as the CV's. I had to call out the BB's at PH to do the job. But what on earth was the AI thinking....sending LB's (not loaded with troops) and Coastal Mine Sweepers all the way to PH??? Crazy!

China

The sitzkreig continues. I bailed out of Loyang to preserve the force there that was starving. Two of the three ID's at Wenchow also successfully retreated back towards Changsha, leaving just one ID in Wenchow now. Yet, the AI still struggles against it - perhaps because it took such huge losses earlier. Eventually it will get it, but it is likely to be a while.

I've also bailed on three other cities in China, as they had 0 supply. The line China has formed is nice, but is, of course, made of glass and would shatter with a good Japanese punch to it. Whether or not the AI will make that punch I don't know and am kind of interested to see. Far as I know, Scenario 30 isn't a "Quiet China" scenario, so I'm assuming the AI has more objectives. But so far, it is been oddly passive.

India

I've let the buildup at Akyab proceed unmolested. No Japanese forces are moving beyond Akywb or slogging through the jungle toward Imphal. Just a building up of the air war. I have a suspicion that this theatre will be largely static for the next year.

The Stacking Limits

The stacking limits really do change the character of the game compared to stock. With its small stacking limits, the islands of the South Pacific can't really allow for building up of lots of forces. Noumea will be near the stacking limit with just one ID, engineers, port/air battallions, one art and one AA. The result is that allied offensives in the Coral Sea area are likely going to have to originate from Australia and New Zealand, much as it did during the real war. This will definitely put a strain on shipping compared to the stock game.

Later in the war, it is plainly obvious that offensives to take objectives like the PI will have "long sails" from New Guine, OZ and Pearl Harbor. Gone are the days of stacking everything at the Marianas and using it as the forward base for all offensive allied operations. Again, this slows the game down and makes it match history far more closely.

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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

Map of China in May 26th, 1942. AI, for now, seems content with its line. I forgot about the garrison in Nanyang, and am moving a tiny Chinese force there for garrison requirements. The unit will, of course, "starve to death."

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jimh009
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

Finally, just another random thought.

For those who want to play the AI, I really do think "rolling over" for the AI early in the war and using Scenario 30 is the way to go. As my game stands now, it is a lot like how it was historically this time during the war. The trick is getting through the first six "boring months" of the war, where the Allied player pretty much does nothing but move stuff around and set up its logistics. But now that I have, things are beginning to get interesting and I'm seeing some strategic challenges that never existed in the stock game. Plus, with the AI having the full weight of the KB and having the whole Solomons/New Guinea area to work behind, I can see where re-taking that area is going to be a lot, lot harder than it has in past games.

Overall, I'm pretty pleased with how the AI has played this game so far. For the most part it has avoided the "big blunders". And where it has blundered, I've just let it pass (for now anyways). And now that is has fully set up all its bases, I have to admit, I'm curious to see what the AI is going to do now. Will it attempt to expand further? Or will it consolidate its various lines of defense? I'm beginning to think the latter from what I've seen so far, which is good in my opinion. A strong line, with a full KB, makes it far more difficult for the Allies to penetrate.
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Mike McCreery
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by Mike McCreery »

The AI follows a script. Once the script runs out it starts to behave more and more erratically.

You can set traps for it which it will blunder in to or I guess you can somehow relax into fighting the KB on some sort of terms you feel is acceptable for the AI.

The problem is that the game will not react to you like a human player will.

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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

The AI follows a script. Once the script runs out it starts to behave more and more erratically.

You can set traps for it which it will blunder in to or I guess you can somehow relax into fighting the KB on some sort of terms you feel is acceptable for the AI.

The problem is that the game will not react to you like a human player will.


Yeah, I figure the AI will do lots of strange things no human would ever do. And for sure, setting traps will be easy - but it is something I'll do my best to avoid doing.

Anyways, rest of the game should prove interesting, at a minimum. The AI is certainly set up far, far better than it has ever been in my past games at this point of the war.
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by CaptBeefheart »

In hindsight, you probably should have let Canton go. The AI does seem to go after that island every time.

Regarding NoPac, in an Ironman game with stacking limits I managed a good foothold in Hokkaido by October '43. You can place about one division per island around Adak until you need to lift them to the Kuriles and Hokkaido. Build only ports on those islands to make it easier to pick them up when you have to (and put them back after the assault if necessary).

I've said it a few times (with hat tip to Bullwinkle on the idea), but a different challenge is to put the game on continuous AI vs. AI for several months before picking up as Allies. This will remove some of your forces from the pool and also allow you to quickly pass the time. Another bonus is that some of your restricted units will then be garrisoning Noumea and other locations, and you'll have all the PPs you need as the AI doesn't use them. Of course, once you take over, you'll need to round up your ship withdrawals posthaste and disband your red air units before bleeding too many PPs.

Anyway, great AAR and keep up the good work.

Cheers,
CC
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karmannkc
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by karmannkc »

That inexplicable raid on PH sounds like an ill omen. My problems with the AI is that when I get to mid 1942 (after I have put up a stout defense in Malasia and the DEI) the AI seems to throw "Kamikaze" raids with valuable CV & SCTFs into heavily defended bases and what the AI should know are minefields, heavy CD emplacements, or large warship bases. They obviously get slaughtered and the war kinda ends.

Example: In my last game I got fed up when a TF with the Zuiho and a decent CA & DD screen literally sailed right into Pearl Harbor as if they were planning to defect. They were all quickly dispatched to the bottom of the pacific.

At the same time large Transport TFs would go undefended into contested waters, and those too would die just as quick.
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

In hindsight, you probably should have let Canton go. The AI does seem to go after that island every time.

Regarding NoPac, in an Ironman game with stacking limits I managed a good foothold in Hokkaido by October '43. You can place about one division per island around Adak until you need to lift them to the Kuriles and Hokkaido. Build only ports on those islands to make it easier to pick them up when you have to (and put them back after the assault if necessary).

I've said it a few times (with hat tip to Bullwinkle on the idea), but a different challenge is to put the game on continuous AI vs. AI for several months before picking up as Allies. This will remove some of your forces from the pool and also allow you to quickly pass the time. Another bonus is that some of your restricted units will then be garrisoning Noumea and other locations, and you'll have all the PPs you need as the AI doesn't use them. Of course, once you take over, you'll need to round up your ship withdrawals posthaste and disband your red air units before bleeding too many PPs.

Anyway, great AAR and keep up the good work.

Cheers,
CC

I'll be avoiding the NoPac route, if only to prevent giving the AI problems. In the game now (I'll post an update later), the AI took Attu but that's it. I'm built up at Adak with minimum forces. I suspect if I made a big drive through the NoPac area, the AI simply wouldn't know "what to do." So far, the AI is giving me a decent game. So no reason to break it!
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: karmannkc

That inexplicable raid on PH sounds like an ill omen. My problems with the AI is that when I get to mid 1942 (after I have put up a stout defense in Malasia and the DEI) the AI seems to throw "Kamikaze" raids with valuable CV & SCTFs into heavily defended bases and what the AI should know are minefields, heavy CD emplacements, or large warship bases. They obviously get slaughtered and the war kinda ends.

Example: In my last game I got fed up when a TF with the Zuiho and a decent CA & DD screen literally sailed right into Pearl Harbor as if they were planning to defect. They were all quickly dispatched to the bottom of the pacific.

At the same time large Transport TFs would go undefended into contested waters, and those too would die just as quick.

I wonder if these raids have a certain "cut off" date in the code, which might sort of make sense. During the past month or so now (I'm well into July now), the AI hasn't made any raids other than at Midway Island. It has even stopped the Canton Island raid - at least for now (knock on wood).

I think the key to dealing with these raids is to basically ignore them if possible and hope that the passage of time will allow them to stop!
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

The AI follows a script. Once the script runs out it starts to behave more and more erratically.

You can set traps for it which it will blunder in to or I guess you can somehow relax into fighting the KB on some sort of terms you feel is acceptable for the AI.

The problem is that the game will not react to you like a human player will.


Quite true. But I think one thing I'm doing to help the AI is by not doing anything "out of the box." A drive through the NoPac would likely break the AI hopelessly, as would a surprise drive up around Perth and into the DEI. Right now it is consolidating and strengthening its South Pacific bases, which makes perfect sense. I think as long as I limit my upcoming offensives to the SoPac and CenPac area, the AI might surprise me and provide a decent contest.
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Mike McCreery
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by Mike McCreery »

ORIGINAL: jimh009

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

The AI follows a script. Once the script runs out it starts to behave more and more erratically.

You can set traps for it which it will blunder in to or I guess you can somehow relax into fighting the KB on some sort of terms you feel is acceptable for the AI.

The problem is that the game will not react to you like a human player will.


Quite true. But I think one thing I'm doing to help the AI is by not doing anything "out of the box." A drive through the NoPac would likely break the AI hopelessly, as would a surprise drive up around Perth and into the DEI. Right now it is consolidating and strengthening its South Pacific bases, which makes perfect sense. I think as long as I limit my upcoming offensives to the SoPac and CenPac area, the AI might surprise me and provide a decent contest.

We have been told before that these scripts have end dates.
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by CaptBeefheart »

ORIGINAL: jimh009



I'll be avoiding the NoPac route, if only to prevent giving the AI problems. In the game now (I'll post an update later), the AI took Attu but that's it. I'm built up at Adak with minimum forces. I suspect if I made a big drive through the NoPac area, the AI simply wouldn't know "what to do." So far, the AI is giving me a decent game. So no reason to break it!

Probably good on your part. The northern route was way too easy.

Cheers,
CC
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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by chemkid »

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RE: May 26th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

ORIGINAL: chemkid

jim, just dropped in to say hi.
hope you'll finish this scenario 'till the bloody end.
thanks for giving that ai another chance. i'll be sticking around. [:)]
cheers!
robert

Thanks for reading the AAR. yeah, I do plan to play until the bloody end, unless my computer dies. I'm playing on my old Win 7 laptop, which is sort of on its last legs. I've been unable to get AE to work on my new Mac laptop that runs Parallels 10. :(
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August 29th, 1942 Update

Post by jimh009 »

August 29th, 1942

Strategic Overview


AI has completely stopped expanding, except for perhaps a few nibbles in China that might be a prelude to some more offensives there. For now, the AI seems totally content to build up its line, fortifications and resources.

Japan still has all of its CV's, CVE's, BB's and CVL's (minus the Zuiho). While Allied subs have taken a toll on Japanese shipping (and some dumb AI moves, such as invading Batavia directly and having the shore guns sink a lot of ships), compared to past games, the AI is pretty flush with shipping at this point in the game.

The AI is in the process right now of doing its one "west coast" raid. Two CV's sunk a tiny transport convoy, giving me heads up to move everything back to port. For the next week or so, little will be shipped anywhere on the West Coast until the KB gets bored and moves North to Alaska - where it will find nothing to bomb either.

The raids by the AI are a bit like diarrhea - an annoyance that will, in time, soon pass. By happen stance, all Allied CV's are in PH and could give chase. But I'll let the AI do its thing in peace, although this might be the last "big raid" by the AI that I let it get away with.

It's been a busy two months, so a lot to go over.

First Allied Offensive - Baker Island

Allies took Baker in mid-August. I gathered up the entire US Navy, which by now includes 10 BB's (including the Repulse and Prince of Wales), and took Baker with nary a fight. In past games, Baker has always caused nasty losses to the Marines who wade a shore - due mainly due to lazy planning on my part and the sometimes "spur of the moment" offensive I'll take to get it back. This time I planned better. I moved a pile of AKE's to Canton, and bombarded Baker for 5 days with 6 different bombardment TF's. Result was a "walk on". The 160 AV the Japanese had there was reduced to 1 in the final combat once the Marines invaded.

The KB didn't show itself during the fight to take Baker. Since Tarawa is still a level 2 airfield, there was also no air opposition.

New Caledonia Region

In early June I gave up "waiting" for the AI to take Luganville and Noumea, so I landed forces and started building bases. Bases now include Noumea, La Fae, Kourmac, Efate, Luganville and Tanna. Luganville is still just an AF2, so it has a ways to go to be built up. Until the AF gets larger, I won't be able to base any bombers there for the future operations I have in the South Pacific (see map).

Future Operations

Since the Navy right now is a bit of a mess with a lot of ships due upgrades, I pulled the entire fleet that participated in Baker Island back to PH. It will remain there for a few weeks, take some much needed shore leave, then likely be gone from PH for a long, long time - since operations will be shifting down to the South Pacific.

Funafuti

The first operation, to be done in late September or early October, is taking Funafuti. Japan hasn't built any of the Ellice Islands up, but I don't like the "dead space" in search over this region of the Pacific. This will be a small operation, with all units now nearly 100% prepped. Assault stages out of Auckland.

The Isolation of Guadalcanal

The big operation for the rest of 1942 is the isolation of Guadalcanal. In the old stock game, taking Guadalcanal was pretty simple...just gather up more LCU's then the AI had there, do a couple days worth of bombardments and voila, the base was in Allied hands.

It won't be nearly as simple this game. Left unmolested, the AI has built up Guadalacanal into a mini-fortress. It's fully manned with at least one ID (perhaps two), tanks and one infantry regiment. All likely sitting behind 4+ forts.

Lunga has a stacking limit of just 40,000. Since the AI is right up against the stacking limit, it is pretty much impossible for the Allies to just "overwhelm" Lunga in a few turns. While you can go over stacking limits by 10% or so without too many problems, going over by 20% or more is a recipe for fast disappearing supply and disruption among the units.

Moreover, the KB is still running around and the AI has filled the skies with Betties in the Solomons. Because of this, it just isn't safe to keep the Allied fleet there all by its lonesome for any length of time.

Because of this, to take Lunga it will be necessary to first establish a network of Allied bases that will, eventually, surround Lunga. The goal of the bases is to provide the necessary land based air cover that the Allied fleet can retreat beneath and, of course, to provide bases that will cut off supply to Lunga.

This task would be a bit simpler if the Allies still had Port Moresby and Milne Bay - since the Allies wouldn't have to deal with Betties coming from multiple bases and multiple directions like they do now. But alas, with the AI having it, it becomes necessary to build up a solid base network.

The allied bases will, as you can probably surmise, be covered with fighters and any torpedo/dive bombers I can scrape up. The big bombers will be based at Luganville.

There's another big reason for the development of all these bases, too. To provide early warning of an approaching KB as well as to keep the KB busy with air battles. If the Allies simply leaped up and tried to take Lunga as it is now, the Allies would be "flying blind" to the location of any Japanese naval forces. The Japanese land based air alone will keep the Allies very busy - despite having 6 CV's. To throw the KB into the mix would, ultimately, lead to disaster.

Thus, a more deliberate approach to Lunga is needed. And that means the development of multiple bases in the area.

The goal is that once the Allies have taken Tulagi and the surrounding bases have been developed, the Allies will have a solid defense screen of land based air, giving the Allied fleet a relatively safe umbrella to operate under. Once that umbrella is established, the Allied Fleet will then essentially be operating out of Tulagi for a few weeks. The BB's - of which the Allies have many now with more on the way - will then do a round the clock bombardment of Lunga over several weeks that will quickly degrade the base, LCU's and supply level. This degradation should allow 2+ full divisions, plus armor, artillery and needed support, to land on Lunga and have a reasonable chance of taking it fairly quickly and without suffering horribly high losses in the process.

While too early to fully know, I imagine I'll be basing one of those new port units (that have 100 Naval Support) at Tulagi during this time, to help keep the AKE's fully loaded. And there will be at least 10-15 AKE's disbanded in Tulagi's port, potentially more. Meanwhile, as the BB's and other ships bombard Lunga, Allied CV's and land based fighters will function mainly to keep the KB and Japanese SCTF's in check and away from Lunga.

But should the KB show itself - and I think it is likely to do so - the land based air will prove a huge factor. Besides providing protection for the Allied fleet, land units will be able to launch their own strikes against the KB. Thus, if the KB shows itself, I think the combination of land based fighters/dive bombers from multiple bases and 6 Allied CV's can give Japan a very blood nose while suffering only light to, at worse, moderate losses.



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