What was the most succesful aerial torpedo attack?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: desicat

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Warspite1

Looks like a good book - I will give this a go.

You mention the JU-87 and JU-88 - but interestingly it was the ME-109 (in a fighter bomber role) that damaged HMS Warspite. Not sure whether this aircraft was responsible for other sinkings/damage off Crete.

I just did a quick scan and a ME-109 FB did hit the Warspite, but so did the DB's. A 109 also got the crippling hit on the Fiji with a 500lb near miss that ripped her open like a mine hit would, she was finished off later by the DB's as well.

The book is one of my favorites. You will enjoy the chapters that describe Luftwaffe "Air Bridge" supply attempts in Russia.

warspite1

I will check that out - I was unaware of any other damage sustained off Crete other than the attack by the three ME-109's when she entered the Kithera Channel.

warspite1

As I thought, I can't see any mention of other hits from dive-bombers. When she was withdrawing from the Channel she was attacked again but not hit.

She did suffer further damage from a near miss a month later while at Alexandria preparing for her journey to Bremerton, but that was a high level air raid.

The Germans may have got confused with Valiant perhaps?

[desicat]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: desicat




I just did a quick scan and a ME-109 FB did hit the Warspite, but so did the DB's. A 109 also got the crippling hit on the Fiji with a 500lb near miss that ripped her open like a mine hit would, she was finished off later by the DB's as well.

The book is one of my favorites. You will enjoy the chapters that describe Luftwaffe "Air Bridge" supply attempts in Russia.

warspite1

I will check that out - I was unaware of any other damage sustained off Crete other than the attack by the three ME-109's when she entered the Kithera Channel.

warspite1

As I thought, I can't see any mention of other hits from dive-bombers. When she was withdrawing from the Channel she was attacked again but not hit.

She did suffer further damage from a near miss a month later while at Alexandria preparing for her journey to Bremerton, but that was a high level air raid.

The Germans may have got confused with Valiant perhaps?

Understand that I'm quoting from Richthofen's diary; "Ten minutes later the Battleship Warspite, Rawlings flagship, received a direct hit, and was further damaged by a flight of ME 109 fighter-bombers of III/JG 77 under First-Lieutenant Wolf-Dietrich Huy."

The Germans recorded a hit on the Warspite prior to the ME 109's under Huy while the British records don't reflect the same. It may be that the first hit the Germans reference was also from a 109 FB and then the Warspite was bombed and straffed by Huy's flight.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: desicat

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

I will check that out - I was unaware of any other damage sustained off Crete other than the attack by the three ME-109's when she entered the Kithera Channel.

warspite1

As I thought, I can't see any mention of other hits from dive-bombers. When she was withdrawing from the Channel she was attacked again but not hit.

She did suffer further damage from a near miss a month later while at Alexandria preparing for her journey to Bremerton, but that was a high level air raid.

The Germans may have got confused with Valiant perhaps?

Understand that I'm quoting from Richthofen's diary; "Ten minutes later the Battleship Warspite, Rawlings flagship, received a direct hit, and was further damaged by a flight of ME 109 fighter-bombers of III/JG 77 under First-Lieutenant Wolf-Dietrich Huy."

The Germans recorded a hit on the Warspite prior to the ME 109's under Huy while the British records don't reflect the same. It may be that the first hit the Germans reference was also from a 109 FB and then the Warspite was bombed and straffed by Huy's flight.

warspite1

I cannot see any reference to more than the one hit off Crete.

Sources:
Roskill (The War At Sea)
Tarrant (Battleship Warspite)
Burt (British Battleships)
www.naval.history.net

But then as we know, its not always easy to get accurate info. One source states it was an Me-109 that damaged Valiant off Crete - another states "probably" a Ju-88!!

[desicat]

I cannot see any reference to more than the one hit off Crete.

Sources:
Roskill (The War At Sea)
Tarrant (Battleship Warspite)
Burt (British Battleships)
www.naval.history.net

But then as we know, its not always easy to get accurate info. One source states it was an Me-109 that damaged Valiant off Crete - another states "probably" a Ju-88!!

--------------------

...and if you read this selection from Wolf-Dietrich Huy they claim that all three members of his flight hit the Warspite!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: desicat

I cannot see any reference to more than the one hit off Crete.

Sources:
Roskill (The War At Sea)
Tarrant (Battleship Warspite)
Burt (British Battleships)
www.naval.history.net

But then as we know, its not always easy to get accurate info. One source states it was an Me-109 that damaged Valiant off Crete - another states "probably" a Ju-88!!

--------------------

...and if you read this selection from Wolf-Dietrich Huy they claim that all three members of his flight hit the Warspite!

warspite1

Hee hee - sounds like we are in Ark Royal territory now. How many times did the Germans report they had sunk her (before finally actually doing so?) [:)]

One thing all reports are clear on is that ONE bomb hit the Old Lady.

[desicat]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: desicat

I cannot see any reference to more than the one hit off Crete.

Sources:
Roskill (The War At Sea)
Tarrant (Battleship Warspite)
Burt (British Battleships)
www.naval.history.net

But then as we know, its not always easy to get accurate info. One source states it was an Me-109 that damaged Valiant off Crete - another states "probably" a Ju-88!!

--------------------

...and if you read this selection from Wolf-Dietrich Huy they claim that all three members of his flight hit the Warspite!

warspite1

Hee hee - sounds like we are in Ark Royal territory now. How many times did the Germans report they had sunk her (before finally actually doing so?) [:)]

One thing all reports are clear on is that ONE bomb hit the Old Lady.

Some First Hand witness statements from Warspite crew members on that fateful day, they begin an page 128.

I should credit Iaian Ballantyne for taking an excerpt from his book Warspite, Warships of the Royal Navy.

[warspite1]

Thanks for posting. Having got one book on Warspite I have not bothered with this one. However, from looking at this, the content does seem quite different so may take the plunge.

[JeffroK]

http://www.world-war.co.uk/bb/warspite.php3
On 21 April she was involved in the bombardment of Tripoli and the following month covered Operation Tiger (a Mediterranean convoy), and operations off Crete where on 22 May she was hit by a single bomb from a Bf109 of III/JG7, which caused extensive damage to the starboard 6in and 4in gun positions; 38 men were killed and many wounded. Temporary repairs were made at Alexandria prior to full repair in the USA, but the ship was near-missed in a raid on the night of 23/4 June which caused further flooding.

This website is very creditable, much better than trusting to the claims of any air force diary.

[Chickenboy]

@Warspite1:

This thread has gone over onto 3 pages now. Time to bring this discussion back to where it should be. The reason the British didn't have the most successful aerial torpedo attack of the PTO in WWII was clear-it was Churchill. That and the Royal Family. Everyone knows that.

[JeffroK]

The Italian Torpedo bomber efforts against the Malta convoys gave scant result.
Results against British shipping were a combination of U Boat/Submarine, Level & Dive Bombing, E Boat/MTB, Air Dropped Mines as well as Torpedo Bombing. Added was the threat but very little actual effect of Surface attack.

All of these added to a combined assault where the limited RN forces had to be prepared against a multiple of threats.

When you look at the stats in WITPAE and the relative paucity of RN AA ratings you can guage what sort of job the RN units did.

Off Crete, tied to defending the island, the RN Battleships, Cruisers & Destroyers were swamped, a number of ships out of AA ammo when sunk, as well as Warspite an number of other ships were badly hit by bf109 Fighter bombers.

[desicat]

ORIGINAL: kev_uk

And the consensus is that the French were 'surrender monkeys'...what were the Italians?

Italian frogmen of the 10th Light Flotilla were incredibly courageous and had an impressive list of achievements. This fits in well with torpedo attack success as they were really quite deadly!

To my knowledge there are only a very few books that chronicle their adventures and one of the ones I have found is only in German and Italian. The below is taken from Wiki but seems accurate. Wiki references a few books and links too.

"The Decima MAS saw action starting on June 10, 1940, when Fascist Italy entered World War II. In more than three years of war, the unit destroyed some 72,190 tons of Allied warships and 130,572 tons of Allied merchant ships. Personnel from the unit sank the World War I-era Royal Navy battleships HMS Valiant and HMS Queen Elizabeth (both of which, after months of work, were refloated and returned to action), wrecked the heavy cruiser HMS York and the destroyer HMS Eridge, damaged the destroyer HMS Jervis and sank or damaged 20 merchant ships including supply ships and tankers. During the course of the war, the Decima MAS was awarded the Golden Medal of Military Valour and individual members were awarded a total of 29 Golden Medals of Military Valour, 104 Silver Medals of Military Valour and 33 Bronze Medals of Military Valour.
Chronicle of operations."

"March 25, 1941: The Italian destroyers Crispi and Sella departed Leros island in the Aegean at night, each carrying 3 small (2-ton) MTs (Motoscafo da Turismo) motor assault boats of the Decima MAS. Each MT (nicknamed barchini or "little boats") carried a 300 kg (660 lb) explosive charge in its bow. The one-pilot craft were launched by the destroyers 10 miles off Suda Bay, Crete, where several British Royal Navy warships and auxiliary ships were at anchor. The MTs were specially equipped to make their way through obstacles such as torpedo nets; the pilot steered the assault craft in a collision course at his target ship, and jumped from his boat before impact and warhead detonation. Once inside the bay, the six boats located their targets: the heavy cruiser HMS York, a large tanker (the Norwegian Pericles of 8,300 tons), another tanker, and a cargo ship. Two MTMs hit the York amidships, flooding her aft boilers and magazines. The Pericles was severely damaged and settled on the bottom, while the other tanker and the cargo ship were sunk. The other barchini apparently missed their intended targets, and one of them was stranded on the beach. All six of the daring Italian sailors were captured. The disabled York was later scuttled with demolition charges by her crew before the German capture of Crete, while the Pericles sank in April 1941 en route to Alexandria."

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

@Warspite1:

This thread has gone over onto 3 pages now. Time to bring this discussion back to where it should be. The reason the British didn't have the most successful aerial torpedo attack of the PTO in WWII was clear-it was Churchill. That and the Royal Family. Everyone knows that.

warspite1

Once again it takes the razor sharp mind of Chickenboy to cut through the reams of ill-informed, turgid, smelly, acne-ridden opinions of so many Euro-Nazi pre-teens, to get to the heart of the matter [&o]

In 1912, while First Lord of the Admiralty, Winston Churchill accidently came upon a sensible idea for a change [8|].

In a moment of forward thinking genius, he was responsible for the setting up of the Royal Naval Air Service. Within a short period of time, the British were experimenting with aerial torpedoes slung from aircraft! Radical! But there was a problem brewing...

Queen Mary was on an official visit to a RNAS station and caught sight of an aircraft with, what can only be described in polite circles, as a phallus protruding from its underbelly. The Queen, shocked at such a sight, promptly feinted. She was immediately attended to and was just coming round as the aircraft - a Sopwith Cuckoo - landed and came to a standstill...right before her very eyes. The poor Queen, prostrate on the floor was horrified "Get that thing away from one!" she screamed.

It was decided there and then that this weapon would have to go - it was simply too vulgar for use by a civilised country. The old Admirals of the Royal Navy were of course delighted. They didn't want these new fangled airplane thingies taking up funding that could be better employed in row upon row of shiny battleships.

In a bid to save his career and his own skin, Churchill decided to quietly shelve the project and ensured that there would be no funding for the RNAS and its weaponry for the next thirty years or we got a new Queen or something.

So the reason the Royal Navy started WWII with biplane aircraft and rubbish torpedoes was because of Queen Mary's phallaphobia and Churchill's selfish desire to save his own career.

Well done Chickenboy.

BTW - this story also confirms the origin of the phrase "going cuckoo".

The offending aircraft (which came to be known as the Cuckoo Cock), complete with naughty bit [X(]

[Mobeer]

How about the attacks on Scharnhorst and Gneisenau as they ran the channel? Six Swordfish attacks (as mentioned by Warspite1), no hits. 33 other bomber attacks, no hits. Destroyer torpedoes launched, no hits. Coastal artillery, no hits.

But the Germans later used the weak British response to help conclude that Enigma was intact and unbreakable.

[Dili]

If i am not mistaken the Swordfish were downed by fighters before dropping torpedoes in Channel Dash.

But in the Med and without Italian fighter protection - so only against AAA and maneuvering -they had only one success in Fleet operations. An hit against Vittorio Veneto - and this Swordfish was hit and the crew was killed after launching the torpedo.

[wdolson]

During the Channel Dash I believe a number of Beauforts managed to drop, but no hits.

Bill

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

If i am not mistaken the Swordfish were downed by fighters before dropping torpedoes in Channel Dash.

But in the Med and without Italian fighter protection - so only against AAA and maneuvering - they had only one success in Fleet operations. An hit against Vittorio Veneto - and this Swordfish was hit and the crew was killed after launching the torpedo.

warspite1

I assume you are referring to Matapan? That wasn't a Swordfish that attacked VV iirc - it was an Albacore. However, it was a torpedo from a Swordfish that stopped the cruiser Pola - which led to the sinking of her and her two sisters, Fiume and Zara.

The Swordfish was retired as a torpedo bomber by April 1942 as the Channel Dash and the Indian Ocean raid proved how obsolete they had become when encountering modern machines. But the Swordfish continued in the anti-submarine role and indeed it was against submarines that they achieved their greatest great success - Taranto and Bismarck aside.

[desicat]

The attack on PQ-18 by the Luftwaffe utilizing the "Golden Comb" tactic was hugely successful. The below is from Wiki:

"The first use of the tactics occurred on 13 September 1942 against the Allied convoy PQ 18, a collection of 35 merchant ships, with a strong escort of 18 warships including the escort carrier Avenger.

After a dive-bombing attack by I/KG 30, the convoy was approached by I/KG 26, the torpedo-bombers, in a formation of 42 aircraft. The sight was described by one observer as “a huge flight of nightmare locusts”.[1]

Despite anti aircraft fire from the ships and their escorts, the group continued on course, dropping their torpedoes as planned. In response the convoy commodore ordered a turn to starboard in order to sail parallel to the torpedo tracks. In the confusion the signal was misread by the ships of the starboard columns, which continued ahead. The torpedoes struck and eight ships, six in the outermost starboard column, and two further in, were sunk."

The "Assessment" paragraph on the Wiki page provides some "interesting" observations? I guess this is why Wiki is Wiki.

[spence]

Admittedly Wiki is Wiki but then the Germans didn't repeat the success they'd had against PQ-17. By their own propaganda each 5000 ton merchie that got thru meant they needed 300 bomber sorties to "make good" the amount of supplies transferred to the Russkis. By 1943 they needed to shut down the Murmansk Run completely. Their tactical success was insignificant when compared to their strategic loss. To top it off things went down hill for them thereafter.

The success of the Brits from Malta in the fall of 1941 against the supply lines of the Afrika Korps (which admittedly was a combo of surface ships, submarines and torpedo aircraft efforts) compares quite favorably with the German efforts against the Murmansk Convoys. Unlike the German efforts against the Murmansk Convoys the Brits were able to replicate those same results in the fall of 1942. Lack of supply doomed the Panzer Armee Afrika.

[Dili]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Dili

If i am not mistaken the Swordfish were downed by fighters before dropping torpedoes in Channel Dash.

But in the Med and without Italian fighter protection - so only against AAA and maneuvering - they had only one success in Fleet operations. An hit against Vittorio Veneto - and this Swordfish was hit and the crew was killed after launching the torpedo.

warspite1

I assume you are referring to Matapan? That wasn't a Swordfish that attacked VV iirc - it was an Albacore. However, it was a torpedo from a Swordfish that stopped the cruiser Pola - which led to the sinking of her and her two sisters, Fiume and Zara.

The Swordfish was retired as a torpedo bomber by April 1942 as the Channel Dash and the Indian Ocean raid proved how obsolete they had become when encountering modern machines. But the Swordfish continued in the anti-submarine role and indeed it was against submarines that they achieved their greatest great success - Taranto and Bismarck aside.

Yes, my mistake, it was an Albacore. I think the Swordfish was much more successful torpedoing than in ASW. But the biggest number of hits were against ships in harbors, not at sea.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dili

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Dili

If i am not mistaken the Swordfish were downed by fighters before dropping torpedoes in Channel Dash.

But in the Med and without Italian fighter protection - so only against AAA and maneuvering - they had only one success in Fleet operations. An hit against Vittorio Veneto - and this Swordfish was hit and the crew was killed after launching the torpedo.

warspite1

I assume you are referring to Matapan? That wasn't a Swordfish that attacked VV iirc - it was an Albacore. However, it was a torpedo from a Swordfish that stopped the cruiser Pola - which led to the sinking of her and her two sisters, Fiume and Zara.

The Swordfish was retired as a torpedo bomber by April 1942 as the Channel Dash and the Indian Ocean raid proved how obsolete they had become when encountering modern machines. But the Swordfish continued in the anti-submarine role and indeed it was against submarines that they achieved their greatest success - Taranto and Bismarck aside.

Yes, my mistake, it was an Albacore. I think the Swordfish was much more successful torpedoing than in ASW. But the biggest number of hits were against ships in harbors, not at sea.

warspite1

I don't think that's right - although I suppose it depends on what value you put on each ship type. From the FAA website:

From 1940 to 1945, the Fleet Air Arm sank 18 Axis submarines and shared 16 other sinkings with escort vessels or RAF units. The Swordfish was responsible for 15 of the 18 solo kills, and participated in 10 of the 16 shared sinkings. That is quite a record for an airplane that was considered obsolete at the time the war broke out.