Amyone still here for help?

From the legendary team at 2 by 3 Games comes a new grand strategy masterpiece: Gary Grigsby’s War Between the States. Taking gamers back to the American Civil War, this innovative grand strategy game allows players to experience the trials and tribulations of the role of commander-in-chief for either side. Historically accurate, detailed and finely balanced for realistic gameplay, War Between the States is also easy to play and does not take months to finish.

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JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

I am definitely at 1.040, which was the last. I have indeed been using NY just for Ironclad production, as that's the only place USA can build them. Meanwhile, CSA is building 1 per turn, and by October '62 he has a good half-dozen dotted around. Is that what you meant by "CSA Ironclad production limited", 'coz I'm not finding him terribly limited?

He seems to be able to sortie his ironclads from a port, attack the sea area cruisers, and then get them back into port same turn. Not absolutely sure how he does this, as I was hoping to catch his ironclads out in sea area next turn, which does not happen. Yes, I dot defending GS/IS into sea areas to prevent, but it's hard to spread them out given that he can attack in several sea areas.

On the subject of Raiders. He has about 10 now, and I have about 10 Cruisers (under a good leader, Farragut) in the sea area intercepting. I do see that sometimes mine "chase" some of theirs, so preventing them raiding. However, I have never seen my cruisers sink a single one of their Raiders (nor, for that matter, have any of my cruisers been sunk/damaged). I'm confused: with the manual saying, I think, that there is a 5% per turn chance of each of my cruisers or their raiders being damaged/sunk each time, I don't get why this never seems to happen?
[Edit: Well, blow me down! For the first time ever, this turn he lost 3 raiders! I had put in 13 cruisers (including a second leader) against his 11 raiders, I don't know whether it was because I outnumbered him?]

ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

csa shouldn't be building one per turn, maybe they are repairs? check in the patch notes youll find info about CSA limited ironclad production.

in my experience you should jump hard on the raiders early! they start shinking ships here and there and once they get experience they are much harder to sink. add as many cruisers as you can as soon as you can.
JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

I counted. It's Feb '63, and CSA has 4 Ironclads (felt like more!) --- does that sound right? I have managed to build 3 (more in pipeline), having concentrated on Cruisers.

Here's a question: the manual/tutorials seem to encourage you to include an Artillery piece with an Infantry leader with several Infantry (and there's a hotkey for that), but I'm finding this is restricting his movement with infantry.
* Am I right to try to build Artillery leaders and group all my Artillery under them, rather than with any Infantry leader? Or is that bad in combat?
* Another question: if I have a single artillery piece in a region and only an Infantry leader there, does the Artillery fare just as well combat-wise if he's unattached, because an Infantry leader (while he might help with movement) gives nothing to the Artillery for combat?
ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

Sounds about right for the AI. You'll find human opponent typically builds less.

As the union you should build nothing but ironclads in new york on the first turn, which I think is 4 at a time. And consider doing another round of builds after that depending on your naval situation.

If you do this the csa navy shouldn't be much more than a nuisance.


The first part of your next question depends on whether or not you are playing with the csc rule. I'll assume you're not since you're new. If that's the case feel free to attach however you like. Obviously cavalry with calvary.

In my experience even the worst leader will put up a better fight than an area with no leaders at all. Also unattached units will automatically attach to a leader if that area is under attack and the leader has any available command points.


You're probably seeing your movement capability going down because a leaders skill rating affects how many movement points the unit gets. For example a leader with a 3 infantry skill level will move further than one with a 2 rating.

And unfortunately the union has a ton of leaders with only a 1 artillery rating. And the stack only moves as fast as the slowest unit.
JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

Thanks for all. (Yes, not playing with CSC, not Fog of War --- first ever game!)

Very politely, you're missing the point I was asking about artillery & infantry mixed under a leader (actually your last sentence is very pertinent, just what I'm seeing). I understand how leader bonuses work. The problem is that an infantry leader has a low artillery rating, so he boosts infantry movement OK but not so much on artillery; that means the stack's movement is limited by the artillery. So I'm finding my infantry does not get enough movement points when mixed with artillery --- I've checked with same-bonus infantry leaders with & without artillery in their stack and find a 1 point difference, which I need terribly for some moves (across rivers, into enemy territory, etc.) That means I'm creating infantry-only stacks under infantry leaders, and artillery-only stacks under artillery leaders. Then I'm asking: as a result, are my infantry-only (or artillery-only) stacks bad in combat because they are not mixed?

Also, separate question, please [:)] As per manual's suggested Union strategy, to boost the blockade I have successfully taken the 3 islands down the East Coast. This seemed to happen via strategic movement. Anyway, I'm now positioned to take "Dauphin" island off south coast Georgia. Only it won't let me [&:] I have transports all in place (from last turn), I have leaders with 1 guy with initiative (including amphib invasion, if required). I can strategic move all the way to the sea area no problem, but neither strategic nor amphib movement is available onto that island. How am I supposed to do it, is it behaving differently because it is far away, or what? Many thanks for your answer!
ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

leader A with 10 infantry and leader B with 10 artillery vs leader A with 5 infantry and 5 artillery and leader B with 5 infantry and 5 artillery?

Unfortunately its a curiosity in this game that I'm not sure of myself. But I believe in either scenario above, all things will be equal, it would just come down to leader ratings. But I'm not 100% maybe someone else could chime in.

Everything sounds like its in place for your invasion, not sure there. If you zip your save you can attach it to your post and we can get it figured out.
JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

ORIGINAL: rs99z28
Everything sounds like its in place for your invasion, not sure there. If you zip your save you can attach it to your post and we can get it figured out.

In my attached Save16, I wish to invade Dauphin Island, AL. I'd like to do it with Rufus King, Philadelphia, PA, who has initiative (also amphib move, but I think that's irrelevant, as previous island invasions seemed to be done by strategic move). But feel free to find anyone who can do it?
Attachments
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ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

You will need initiative anytime you make a move into enemy territory.

Looking at your save I see only 1 transport in the destination area. With a transport level of 25/2. For invasions you will be looking at the 2nd number which is a 2, however you need 4 transport points for each infantry you invade with. So add a transport and you should be good to go.
JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

Thank you. My apologies for being dumb, I had thought the "2" amphib meant allows 2 units! For my previous invasions, I must have had 4+, without noticing it.

However, I am then left with behaviour I do not understand. I attach my new Save18, at start of turn. Would you be kind enough to try the following:

* I move 1 transport, say from Ac7, to Gc5, to give me 4 at the destination.
* Although I thought this would not be ready to transport till next turn, I find it is useable now. Sure enough, as you say, I can now move McCauley with his 1 infantry from New York to strategically invade Dauphin island in 389/Gc5. That's great, and will do me for now [:)]
* However, if I try to move any of the leaders with 1 infantry from Philadelphia (e.g. Miles, Runyon) to Dauphin Island instead it is still not allowed.
* Why is this?? Compared to McCauley who does work, a leader in Philadelphia has as many movement points and also does have Initiative plus amphib symbol. What is the difference which allows only McCauley to do it? The only thing I can think of is that he is a Naval leader, is this making a difference for amphib/strategic move??

Thanks in advance!

STOP PRESS!
I have just discovered for myself that I need to move a Transport into river Delaware R1, then the units in NY can indeed strategically invade the island! Without that, they can move to the sea area, but not invade. So I'm guessing that without the transport they start out their strategic move by train/road first, and you can only invade from sea (even strategically) if the whole route is sea transport only? OK, yep, just found the relevant confirming this in the manual! This effectively also answers my confusion over naval units being in port rather than actually out in adjacent sea/river area --- clearly being in port does not count as being in river/sea.

If you still fancy loading my save, you might instead comment on my woeful Union position! After years of trying, I am still stuck unable to conquer either Manassas or Paducah; I have tried several times with a large force, but always lose a major/strategic victory, and many units [:(] The CSA maintains at least as many units as I can muster (look at my terrible PPs!). I know you'll say "manoeuvre", believe me I have tried, but getting enough initiative+movement is problematic, and CSA kills me with Reaction Movement from adjacent regions!
Attachments
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ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

First thing that I see is the bad army commanders you've got, McDowell and mcclellan should have been replaced a long time ago.

Always build at least 2 depots in enemy territory, cavalry raids can destroy supply in raids and if that puts you under 20 you do not get an initiative bonus.

Always get your area you want to attack scouted at least %90

Always try to take Kentucky before csa does. Paducah can be a very tough nut to crack. The terrain in the east and general lee greatly favor the csa there. The war will be won or lost in the west. You should keep a large army in the east to mainly pin down large csa forces.

If you take one of the territories at the mouth of the Mississippi and station a heavy artillery on it you will shut down all trade stemming from the river. Huge blow to the csa and should be done early in the game.

I'm no pro at the game but those are some of the things that have jumped out at me.
Bearcat2
Posts: 578
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:53 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by Bearcat2 »

Assuming this is the July 61' start
Hmmm; I never invade KY first as the Union, I build up forces in Cairo[Lyons], across from Louisville[Halleck] and Cincinnati[McDowell or McCellan]. I make sure to have at least 1 cv in each with Cincinnati having 3 or 4 -1 unit brigades, Paducah and across from Louisville each have up to 40 factors. I also put an army cmdr in each. The only thing you have to watch out for is if the Confederates invade Paducah and put in hvy art, in which case you need to use your gunboats to attack the fort first and hopefully eliminate them; sometimes you do not have the initiative to do this, in which case you have to defeat the hvy art in Paducah in the same turn as you invade.[move gunboats first- attack with them BEFORE moving your inf into the territory, if you have the movement points, you can attack more than once with naval units]

I also think it is a losing proposition for the Union to attack in the east toward Richmond, just take the VP hit because every time you lose a battle, you make the Confederates stronger
The most important thing to do as the Union player is to draft on the first turn or you will be outnumbered by the Confederates.
I think the 2nd most important thing to do on the first turn is to recruit 2 inf leaders in the WEST, because they are Halleck and Grant and you make Halleck an Army cmdr.
Remember that you can recon with cav; but if you plan on attacking a area with naval and land, you attack with the navy first [naval bombardment] before moving attacking land units.
Overruns are your friend, only takes 1 unit to overrun an undefended area and all of Missouri, Kentucky, West Virginia and Maryland are undefended areas. It takes 6inf to 1 enemy factor to overrun normally, so plan for that when distributing your forces.





"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837
JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

I am digesting your observations, thanks!

I have indeed sacked both the "Mc"S. I have also actually finally taken Paducah! Which is very pleasing, if a little futile. The bottom line is that I have about 550 PPs while the CSA has 1K+; and his total number of troops outnumber mine (I've lost more), which sucks, as every other Civil War game I've played at least I'd always have more troops if I played the North! In all honesty I wouldn't even vote for myself in the Election [:(]
ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

Recruitment drops lower as your points drop. When you're playing a good union opponent who gets on a roll they are almost unstoppable. Believe me I've been there.

JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

Well, I persevered to the end (unusual for me, I usually give up games after a while, so this must have formed a good impression!).

After Lincoln's defeat, I lost in January '65, to a decisive Confederate victory [:(] I had complete blockade, most of the Mississippi, a few regions invaded; no progress at all in the East, and still not the whole of Kentucky. Basically, the CSA could always muster as many/more troops anywhere I tried to push (in fact, if I had been him, I think I could have attacked more in the East and won). I think in the whole game I only had a couple of reaction phases, so he barely attacked anywhere at all.

Here are a couple of random questions/observations:

* By the end, I had like 40 troops in my "damaged" queue, but no chance or bringing them back as the build states would always go to negative manpower, I could just bring maybe 1 troop back in per turn. There is no way to increase your manpower, is there? Initially I built some factories in some regions, but by the time they reached the top of the queue I either couldn't bring them in; but more to the point, I had build points to spare, but never enough manpower anyway. Meanwhile, I ended up with thousands of supplies and nothing to spend them on?

* I only drafted once, on the first turn, then (because I was doing so badly) I never wanted to spend a further 50 PPs as my PPs were so rubbish. Looking at the manual math for drafting, does it just increase how many troops I get initially at the same expense of what I have to pay for recruits in later turns, i.e. Union does not end up with more soldiers?

* I understand about the need to scout. But when I move a whole Army, including its commander, to attack a region, I tend to want my cavalry to go with him, so that it can regain initiative next turn assuming I (somehow) win there. So after scouting, if the cavalry has enough movement left, I send him into battle too. Is this right, or should I be holding cavalry back from battle?

* Once @rs99z28 had taught me to put enough transports in place in destination invasion area I understood how to do it. But I still found that some areas I could reach would not allow me to invade. Am I right that the varying destination regions' terrain requires my troops to have enough movement points and (perhaps especially in Winter) 3 or 4 movement points might be insufficient?

* It's all very well @Termite2 saying "Overruns are your friend, only takes 1 unit to overrun an undefended area" but I never got enough leaders with initiative to invade, at least initially, and before I knew it the CSA was everywhere. Maybe I didn't understand the rules enough on my very first Union turn....

That'll do for now! Obviously, I now change which game I play [:)] I had a half-hearted look at my copy of Gary Grigsby's World at War, which I think I never really played. I can now see how similar the interface/mechanics is to WBtS, though the resolution is even worse [:(] Anyone ever bothered with this one?

I'd welcome comments/answers to questions in green. Thank you so much for all your input!

Bearcat2
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RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by Bearcat2 »

1. You need more factories and probably not attack so much with large stacks, especially in the East.
2.You draft every 6 months for at least the first 4 times or you will not have enough manpower.
3.Your choice, but as the Union, unless I tend not to send them in.
4. No, if you have sea init troops, you can invade, BUT you must have enough transports in every sea zone[first number-basically 6inf per transport] that you pass through and then have enough invasion transports[2nd number-4 transports per inf in the first couple of turns-2 transports after]at the invasion location
5. 1 cav will have a base of 3 pts, that is enough to move an area and overrun a 0 defended area. ex July 61' scenario, Union first turn-
UN Cv in Sedalia Missouri, overrun Joplin Missouri: detach one of the militia units in Jefferson City Missouri, convert to Cav- it now has 3 pts -Move Cv ldr Carr in Cairo Ill to Jefferson City- attach the Cav- overrun Springfield Missouri- Missouri is now Union held: Take Kelley in Wheeling WVA and overrun Charleston WVA: now I detach a militia in Parkersburg WVA-convert to Cav-move Gillem Cv ldr in Cincinnati to Charleston WVA- attach the CV, overrun Franklin WVA- this traps the Confed force in Grafton WVA - mv McCellan's force to Grafton: Take Runyon in Washington DC overrun Charles MD: detach the Art unit from Miles in Washington DC, the unit can now move 4, overrun Kent MD: you now control Maryland.
On the first turn builds, I generally build 4 ironclads in NY, max gunboats in Cincy& St Louis, 3 fact and 4 cruisers in the NE areas, then generally 1 art or transport and 1 factory in areas that can build them; and then all factories except 1 in areas that cannot build troops/ships[ ex Illinois -Chicago 4 fact- Springfield 1 factory -Cairo 1 gunboat]

There are some turns where I do not move as the Union, not enough initiave.
"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837
Bearcat2
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RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by Bearcat2 »

I forgot to add that I am pretty sure it is your lack of factories that cause the troops not to be built and not manpower, you need 1 factory to rebuild a damaged unit
"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837
ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

there is no way to increase your manpower, some is added automatically each turn.

your draft will still result in a net positive vs not drafting.

if youre sufficiently scouted and have mp left, sure go and and send them.

im not sure on that one. send a save maybe?


by the way ive never drafted more than 3 times and I find the sweet spot is usually 2
Bearcat2
Posts: 578
Joined: Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:53 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by Bearcat2 »

ORIGINAL: rs99z28

........................................................

by the way ive never drafted more than 3 times and I find the sweet spot is usually 2

2? you are a better player than I [:(]
"After eight years as President I have only two regrets: that I have not shot Henry Clay or hanged John C. Calhoun."--1837
ryan1488
Posts: 160
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:01 pm

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by ryan1488 »

ive been playing off an on since it came out, but there are many better than I. ever try pbem? wish I hadn't waited so long
JonBrave
Posts: 120
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:10 am

RE: Amyone still here for help?

Post by JonBrave »

A couple of points on the answers above:

* For production, my bottleneck seems to be hugely manpower, not factories. When I'm in the build phase, the factory exist/used number shows I have plenty of spare factory capacity; my problem is that many regions' manpower available/required is negative, I have to cut right down to, say, at most 1 unit per turn per region-group to try to get it out of negative. I don't see how more factories would help. I think my problem is that I'm doing so badly that I might have, say, 30-odd infantry queued up for rebuild! My manpower is nowhere near keeping up with that.

* The sea invasion cannot quite be as you say, IMHO. I now do understand to provide enough transports/amphib in the destination area (as well as transports in the areas leading there). I am talking about, say, just 1 infantry with a leader with amphib initiative, so just 2 transports in destination (tried with more anyway). There are some regions (adjacent to sea) which stay "dimmed out". As an example, if I want to invade a "swamp" destination, don't I need more spare movement points than if it were plain terrain?
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