A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

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Major SNAFU_M
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A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Major SNAFU_M »

Hi all,

I have been playing around with the Air tutorial, trying to refine my understanding and control of air assets.

I have watched a few videos, including Baloogan's play through of this mission. I notice that the current tutorial mission is somewhat different to the one that Baloogan used.

Anyway, the problem that I am trying to figure out is that I can never seem to completely eliminate the air defenses.

The enemy base has:

SA-6b Gainful (mobile)
SA-2f Guideline - fixed
SA-3 Goa - Fixed

There is also a Tall King A radar.


I usually break up my groups to one group with the Walleyes and 2 separate groups with the Shrikes. I assign 1 Prowler to a North and South station and coordinate their approaches with what ever group I have making a strike run.

I often send in coordinated strikes from opposite directions, or at least offset by 90 degrees.

I typically use the Shrikes and degrade the radars on all of the units, with the exception of the Low Blow on the Goa, which always seems to escape any shrike run.

This usually results is light damage to the SA sites and the complete destruction of the Tall King.

But from then on, I cannot completely destroy any of the SA sites. The best I can ever accomplish is heavy damage (and I usually concentrate on the Goa - because the Low Blow is difficult to hit with the Shrikes). The Goa, even with heavy damage in the red still is capable of launching SAMs BTW.

I have run many experiments, including expending all available Walleyes only on the SA-2 and SA-3 (after radar degradation). After expending all Walleyes, again the best I can ever achieve is heavy damage and the site is still operational. I even follow up the Walleyes with the expenditure of all CBUs on all three SA sites and I always end up with some combination of 1 Heavy and 2 medium damage and I usually loose AC from the CBU strikes.

If I then try to make other strike missions to destroy other facilities, I typically take catastrophic losses despite the Prowlers, etc. My guess is the visual systems on the SA sites are still fully functional.

I have tried many different approaches from letting the AI handle the strike, to manually assigning the strikes to SEAD missions (which usually take the heaviest losses b/c I have see strike aircraft circle the SA sites trying to release CBUs rather that making two separate, straight passes across the targets.

I am looking for tips because these SA site seem to be amazingly robust, but that may be exactly as it should be. So I am also looking for feedback.

Thanks,

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DarkFib3r
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by DarkFib3r »

I too am interested in how to conduct effective SEAD, be it with Shrikes or HARMs. In my opinion, the name of the game is isolating the highest threats and engaging them at standoff, preferably with ARMs.

The highest priority for any SEAD strike are the fire control radars (in your case the SA-6's Straight Flush, the SA-2's Fan Song, and the SA-3's Low Blow). Unfortunately you cannot target specific radars, so this normally forces you to "waste" a large number of ARMs on lower-priority targets, such as the acquisition radars. However, it does seem like the first ARM off the rails targets the FCR on a given site, which is a good thing. Further complicating this is that SAMs can be used to actually shoot down your ARMs.

In the situation described, I would think that you would want your Shrike aircraft as high as possible to maximize their standoff range and focus first on the SA-6s. I haven't tried this, but maybe you can break the ARM group into individual aircraft and manually fire one ARM from each at the SA-6. If the first ARM off the rail goes for the Straight Flush for each aircraft, it is a question of saturating their air defenses (i.e. getting enough missiles through before they get shot down) and the probability of the ARM hitting - my understanding is that Shrikes have lower probabilities of hitting than HARMs. I have seen SA-10s shoot down harms with a 25% probability, so if you can get 4 Shrikes to fly at the Straight Flush simultaneously, you will likely score a critical hit. Once you launch your ARMs, retrograde your SEAD out of the area and wait to see if the strike is effective. If you hit the FCR with the first strike, move on to the next highest threat (SA-2) and repeat.

I would keep the jamming pointed at the SAMs on the ARM attack to prevent launches for as long as possible. Your SEAD aircraft may have to trespass into the SAM envelope and you want to minimize their exposure as much as possible. You also want to minimize the SAMs from shooting down your ARMs in mid-air. Once you are out of ARMs, you can try to use the CBUs to hit the remaining SAMs. Hopefully, with jamming, you are able to drop some CBUs on a lower-threat FCR without getting shot at yourself, but SEAD is dangerous work.

The biggest challenge I have had with SEAD is getting enough missiles to target the FCR of the desired SAM. Once there is a way to target specific radars with ARMs, like in real life, SEAD will be much more effective.

Any more thoughts or comments are welcomed - I would like to learn more about conducting effective SEAD in C:MANO.
Sykoticwit
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Sykoticwit »

SEAD sucks. I don't usually try to destroy the SAM sites, it's pretty much impossible with the weapon limits you have, I just try to suppress them while my strike aircraft are inside their engagement envelope. You can destroy them, but you have to devote a ridiculously high percentage of your strike aircraft to so it, and that takes away from the main point of the exercise, destroying actual targets.

Typically my strike package will be divided into 2-3 subpackages depending on how many aircraft I have and what the terrain looks like. Each subpackage has 1-2 jammers and then around 1/2-1/3 of my strike aircraft and each subpackage takes a different axis of attack to confuse the opfor's radar picture as much as possible. Use the editor and switch sides to see how confused it gets with jammers coming from 3 different directions :)Jammers work best the closer their axis of flight is to the axis of attack, so my jammers are usually 10-20 miles behind their strike package at loiter speed. They're the last in and the last out. If you have two per subpackage, they can support each other on the way out.

Anything you can do here to confuse the opfor is good, TALD/ITALD work wonders, standoff strike weapons coming in along the same axis as your strike packages, anything to make their radar picture more complex and their targeting decisions harder. And then start launching ARM's at their emitters to force them to take quick looks and don't give them time to burn through your jamming.

I usually assign my SEAD aircraft to orbit just inside or outside the opfor's SAM range and have them launch a missile or two at every radar as they light up. My goal isn't to destroy the radars, it's just to keep their heads down while the strike aircraft are doing their thing. If you do it right, from the time the strike aircraft enter the SAM's engagement envelop to the time the packages are leaving should only be a couple of minutes, so I typically have enough ARM ordnance to keep their heads down. My strike aircraft usually cruise along until they enter the SAMs engagement envelops, and then I kick them up to military or afterburn to minimize the time their at risk.

I also keep my aircraft fairly high, at least 10k AGL during their runs in, I've found the AAA and MANPADS are a lot more dangerous than the bigger SAMs, they're more numerous and a lot harder to suppress. I've lost more aircraft from AAA trying to cluster bomb SA-2's than I ever have from the actual SA-2.

Of course the best solution is to have your DDG-1000 LRLAP the SAM sites from 80 miles offshore, but that's not always possible :*(
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Major SNAFU_M
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Major SNAFU_M »

THanks for those ideas.

I will spend some more time on this.
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hellfish6
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by hellfish6 »

My advice, for what it's worth:

1. Think of enemy air defenses as being an onion you slowly have to peel back. Go for the longest ranged systems first (fighters, then radar and/or SAM - in this case the Migs, Tall King and SA-2f).
2. Know your enemy. The database will tell you everything you need to know to defeat enemy SAM systems - max and minimum ranges, max and minimum altitudes, backup targeting (i.e. optical or IR backups). Pile onto the things that are most resilient - in this case the SA-3 and SA-6 units. The SA-3 and SA-6 have backup TV cameras to shoot at you with. Those can't be jammed. (The SA-2 has a backup camera too, but if you can get in close, they aren't a threat. The SA-2 is pretty awful against low altitude, close range targets.)
3. Use terrain to mask your approach. Radars and missiles cannot shoot through mountains. Turn on your relief map (map settings) to see where you can approach close without being shot at/detected. Fly low!
4. Use jammers to cover your approach, but they don't need to be put in danger. I make 'support' missions for my jammers like a dagger aimed at the SAM sites from NAS Fallon to just inside enemy missile range. If your strike aircraft approach from where the jammers are, they should be pretty well protected.
5. After blinding the radars with Shrikes (I give 2 Shrikes each to the Tall King, SA-2f battalion, SA-6 battery and SA-3 battalion - anything left is kept in reserve in case I need to shoot again) go in with the cluster bombs and guns on the SA-3 and SA-6.
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Major SNAFU_M
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Major SNAFU_M »

Thanks Hellfish.

I have been spending a lot of time trying to get this right and I am still struggling with the SAMs.

This last time around, I had used all of my Shrikes and the SA-6 still had its radar. The SA-6 and SA-3 had absorbed all of the Walleyes and only the SA-6 was critical damage. And it was still operational. I have been pairing all attacks along the jammer axis - and I didn't loose any planes.

making a save a this point I then tried to use the "bomb trucks" along the jammers axis and lost nearly all of them.

I then reloaded and tried using all of the CBUs on just the SA-6 and SA-3. They absorbed 50% of the CBUs each with no observable increase in damage or loss of effectiveness. I then saved and tried the same attack with the "bomb trucks" with again dismal results.

My experience so far, with respect to the other comments above, is that suppression is no t sufficient to keep the "bomb truck" alive both through both ingress and egress to the target. I am amazed at how robust these SAM sites are.

So I then reloaded and used the LBU's on the SA-6, SA-3 and SA-2 sites. This finally eliminated them. I am thinking that I will try again and just use the Shrikes and the LBUs on the SAM sites. The CBUs seem to be ineffective each time (about 8 at this point) that I have employed them against the SAM sites. But it may very well be the case that I am making an error in how I am setting up the attack.

Regarding your other comments. I have been using 100% Shift+F1 on 2 ship groups to make my attacks. Each plane is tasked with a single target only. Does the AI take into account all of the items you mention when it auto-plots an attack after SHift+F1 or F1? Especially in terms of best altitudes, etc. I know it executes a profile to bring ownship weapons within launch parameters.

Perhaps I need to better master the mixing of SHift-F1 and manually plotting all of the way points myself. I think that is the next critical step - but I really want to let the AI handle getting the AC to the launch parameters after the attack passes the IP point.

More studying to do on my end....
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Tomcat84
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Tomcat84 »

What altitudes are you dropping the CBUs from? I'll see if maybe I can re-run this one in the next few days so I can give some tips.
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by kylania »

Thanks for this thread all! It's been really helpful in learning how to play this game better.
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Major SNAFU_M
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Major SNAFU_M »

Hi Tomcat,

Thanks for the response.

So my answer is that I am not setting anything manually. I have all of my strike packages orbiting outside of the SAM range, with the Jammers just inside (toward) the SAM sites. I then select a strike group (e.g. a 2 Ship with CBUs - Only after the Shrikes have all been expended) and then select the target with Shift-F1. I then manually assign weapons per plane to the target. That is the end of my interaction.

I then allow the strike package to begin its ingress to the target. I have the jammer fall in behind so that they will be able to cover the run in and the turn off of the target after the weapons are pickled.

My assumption (and here is where I believe my expectations are not in alignment with what occurs in the game ((and that is ONLY a criticism of me, and not this excellent sim)) is that the AI pilots are smart enough to perform the ingress to the target, meet all of the required release parameters ((including dropping below clouds if they are using LBGs)) to correctly and optimally employ the weapons).

(So to answer your specific question: The AI is setting the release altitude for the CBUs. I would have to replay and play attention to what those altitudes are to provide further information).

I now understand that I need to refine this to specify the route way points, speeds and altitudes. I initially started playing that way, but I found it frustratingly difficult to manually meet launch parameters (e.g. plan for sufficient time/distance to change altitudes, etc.) in a reliable fashion, so I was hoping I could hand that part off to the AI. I have had mixed results in trying to release manual control of the last way point or two. I always feels like something isn't being met and the weapons to not deploy as I am expecting. Again, this is all learning curve on my end and not a criticism of the sim.

I think I need to go back to also look into using the strike missions rather than the method I am now employing. I had initially tried this as well, but too often I am loosing AC because they make a bomb run, and then, instead of continuing straight off target and egressing at military speed, they seem to want to circle back (even though they have no target now) and remain within the SAM envelope. Perhaps I need to plot these way points out as well.

I am going to go back to the editor and set up some missions with only one variable and try until I get this sorted in my head.

NOTE TO THE MODERATORS: This thread should probably be moved to the War Room. I didn't initially put it in there because I read the definition of the War Room as being for the posting of completed and proven strategies and tactics (polished examples) but in practice it appears that this is where this type of thread should have been placed. Please move it there if you wish.

Regards,
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RoccoNZ
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by RoccoNZ »

I've noticed that if I target a SAM site with a salvo of guided weapons (like SLAM), the game invariably assigns them against the missile vehicles (TELs) first. I've wasted plenty of ammo trying to kill radars for sites that have no launchers left...
mikmykWS
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by mikmykWS »

Specialty anti radiation missiles will correctly target the radars but other munitions are designated to the unit mounts. This is not an error as you can kill SAM sites by targeting their weapons as well.

Thanks!

Mike
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by RoccoNZ »

It's actually useful - it avoids waisting ordinance if you're targeting with multiple axis and weapon types. At some point it would be great to have more granularity in what is targeted (i.e expanding list for SAM site, listing radars, TELs, command post, etc) but for now it's sensible.
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Sakai007 »

My method of choice for executing SEAD strikes is this. I will assign all the aircraft I need to a SEAD patrol over the suspected SAM area. Make sure to send all the aircraft, not having the 1/3 box checked. Smart SAM operators will keep their radars off, and without that intel, you can't launch a targeted ground strike through the mission interface. Once the SAM site lights up to attack something, you have your target and your SEAD equipped aircraft will light it up.
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Major SNAFU_M
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by Major SNAFU_M »

So I made a modified version of this training scenario where I took out the opfor AC and I removed the weapons from the SAM sites so that I could just concentrate on different ways to set up attacks. I have noticed some very curious behaviour and am going to post the scenario and my observations in the Tech support forum.
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TXTBOOK
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by TXTBOOK »

I wanted to resurrect this thread to discuss the best SEAD strategies... I'm really struggling with Black Tiger V which gives you 2 carriers, plus some "enhanced" aircraft against a fortified Straight of Hormuz. It seems like I should have all the capability in the world to do some damage but I'm only successful in the AAW portion of the fight.

It seems my biggest problems are identifying the location of the SAMs and Radars (the only ISR/ELINT assets available are F-35's) and the fact that the SAM's are shooting down all my SEAD missiles before reaching target.
falcon2006
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by falcon2006 »

Sorry to disappoint you, but from my view, I hate any SEAD missions without any long range ARMs or SDBs etc. The truth is before the birth of HARM,Tomahawk IV(with new ESM system) and GBU-53,such kind of missions are dangerous and SEAD planes stands less chance to survive than other missions.
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offenseman
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by offenseman »

Real new to the game so I have no real answers to the original question. However I am wondering how to use the TALD/ITALD decoys.
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mikmykWS
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by mikmykWS »

BOL fire them.

Mike
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offenseman
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by offenseman »

I've tried that but nothing seems to happen besides flying toward the target. i.e. area defenses ignore them. Are its sensors inherited from the parent or are they automatic.
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mikmykWS
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RE: A question about dealing with Enemy Air defenses

Post by mikmykWS »

There is no specific logic programmed in for them. You can bol fire and then plot a course. If they've got a jammer you can turn them on via the sensors dialog.

Mike
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