In Italy, German AI seems too willing to give up on encircled units

[wokelly]

So I have noticed the German AI in Italy are more concerned with establishing a new defensive line rather then try to save cut off units. When I break through and cut off a hex with a division or two, the AI just pulls back several hexes and waits for me to crush the surrounded units and pull up against them.

I know the AI can crunch numbers and figure out what will work, and probably determined it can't save the unit, but its pretty immersion breaking for the AI to at least not try. The AI is cold and rational, but in the context of WWII I can't imagine any side not attempting a relief, even if it likely would not succeed.

[Numdydar]

Have you read much about the eastern front at all [:)]?

It happened all the time to both sides there where units were left surrounded with no attempt to save them due to more important needs at the time. So I see nothing wrong with this.

[wokelly]

Really? Stalingrad, Demyansk, Korsun, Kamenets, Falaise. All had relief attempts or breakout attempts or both. Even the Russians in 1941/42 attempted to break open corridors for encircled troops when they could. The AI divs in Italy don't even really try, the guys in the pocket sit there though they must still have supply, and the AI never masses his divisions against my encirclement to try to open it up.

In terms of the image below, the AI could mass some units on the 4 hexes near my units and try to open up a corridor to extract the trapped divisions. Instead, they fall back and create a rather wide defensive line. And I see this every time I encircle a unit in the Italy theater. It seems like the AI's priority is to establish a new defensive line rather then try to save any cut off divisions.

[HMSWarspite]

You are suggesting the AI commit maybe half a dozen divisions to rescue what I assume is 2 Bdes, whilst compromising the new defensive line and possibly risking further encirclements and an allied break out all the way to Sienna? Want a game?

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: wokelly

Really? Stalingrad, Demyansk, Korsun, Kamenets, Falaise. All had relief attempts or breakout attempts or both. Even the Russians in 1941/42 attempted to break open corridors for encircled troops when they could. The AI divs in Italy don't even really try, the guys in the pocket sit there though they must still have supply, and the AI never masses his divisions against my encirclement to try to open it up.

In terms of the image below, the AI could mass some units on the 4 hexes near my units and try to open up a corridor to extract the trapped divisions. Instead, they fall back and create a rather wide defensive line. And I see this every time I encircle a unit in the Italy theater. It seems like the AI's priority is to establish a new defensive line rather then try to save any cut off divisions.

Yes but how many more were left without relief efforts. Trying to save 100's of thousands is much different than trying to save 50,000 or less.

[Steelers708]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Yes but how many more were left without relief efforts. Trying to save 100's of thousands is much different than trying to save 50,000 or less.

Well the Cholm pocket only had 5,500 men and the Halbe pocket had aproximately 50,000 troops and both were relieved/brokeout.

whilst I agree that rescuing 5-10,000 men is improbable in a game at this scale, 50,000+ is a considerable number for the AI to ignore.

[Nico165b165]

I see the AI trying to rescue units sometimes. It will only do so if it thinks it has chances to win.

Here :

- you have some very powerful units encircling, tanks and motorized in open terrain
- the hex with the NZ div can only be attacked from two hexes
- the other with the SA armored div from 3, one being rough terrain
- light mud reduces offensive CV
- the Tevere, the mountains on the east and the lake Bolsena makes it more difficult to bring more units to counter attack without dangeroulsy weakening the front

I'm not even sure a human would try to relieve those units.

One trick to give the AI more chances to counter attack is playing at a higher difficuly level, challenging at least. The AI will "see" better attacking prospects with higher morale and transport.

[micheljq]

I am not sure the russians were relieving are their encircled forces Steelers. Did they relief the 1,5 million soldiers trapped around Kiev? I do not know but i know 600 000 were lost. Maybe they could not afford though.

Michel.

[Steelers708]

I'm not sure that the 1941 pockets are a fair comparison given the parlous state of the Soviet army and the rapidity of the German advances. Off the top of my head I can't think of many, if any, German pockets where the Germans didn't try a relief operation of those in the pocket didn't try to breakout.

[HMSWarspite]

OK, but to get back to this question, how would you (we) as a player actually break that pocket... FoW means planning is hard but you would need to have significant reserves or strip out the line almost to the mountains, certainly to the Tevere... Recipe for major grief next turn even if it succeeds. I presume the indicator is on Supplies? In which case Allied supply isnt brilliant, but nor is Axis. I think that is a definite case of the pocket remains as a nuisance in the Allied rear until it surrenders.

[AWGreif]

The question for me is not why the AI didn't attack to releive the encircles units, but why arrange a defense line so far from enemy, instead of holding the line at side of Bolsena Lake.

[HMSWarspite]

Actually, I would probably put a line even further back, behind the Ombrone and Lake Trasimene. It gives probably a turn more fortification, and after all any line on the plain is only a speed bump.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: wokelly

...

In terms of the image below, the AI could mass some units on the 4 hexes near my units and try to open up a corridor to extract the trapped divisions. Instead, they fall back and create a rather wide defensive line. And I see this every time I encircle a unit in the Italy theater. It seems like the AI's priority is to establish a new defensive line rather then try to save any cut off divisions.

How?

for a start the rain will be affecting offensive CVs. The only really vulnerable hex is the one with the Canadian armour and you'd need around 42 cv to even start to have a decent chance. The AI probably has around 60 attack cvs in all the units and there is no way the infantry to the east of Bolsena can arrive and take part (you usually need 5-6 MPs for a full attack).

even if by some fluke the AI could bring everything it has to bear, its going to be a marginal attack with nearly everything it has on the map. And would set up its entire Italian army for a grand encirclement over the next few turns.

think pulling back is pretty sensible, I'd be worried if the AI actually risked an attack

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

OK, but to get back to this question, how would you (we) as a player actually break that pocket... FoW means planning is hard but you would need to have significant reserves or strip out the line almost to the mountains, certainly to the Tevere... Recipe for major grief next turn even if it succeeds. I presume the indicator is on Supplies? In which case Allied supply isnt brilliant, but nor is Axis. I think that is a definite case of the pocket remains as a nuisance in the Allied rear until it surrenders.

I'm not sure I'd even try. Lets assume that there is more armour than appears. I guess you could get the best units into 1 corps, pour all your supplies into that (ie level 4), starve the rest, get your support units into that formation and commit the level bombers you have been hoarding for a critical moment. You *might* just do it, but like you, I'd fall back behind the Ombrone rather than where the defense line appears to be