Helicopters in FPC

The new Cold War turned hot wargame from On Target Simulations, now expanded with the Player's Edition! Choose the NATO or Soviet forces in one of many scenarios or two linked campaigns. No effort was spared to model modern warfare realistically, including armor, infantry, helicopters, air support, artillery, electronic warfare, chemical and nuclear weapons. An innovative new asynchronous turn order means that OODA loops and various effects on C3 are accurately modeled as never before.

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Mad Russian
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

Seems to me that what is needed is a change in tactics. No matter how much people would like it to be true helicopters are not flying tanks. The desert is also the worst place to deploy helicopters as there is little to no cover for them to use.

A single incident shouldn't and probably won't influence the deployment of the equipment. What should and probably has happened is a reevaluation of how to use that equipment to the best advantage.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by duckenf »

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

Seems to me that what is needed is a change in tactics. No matter how much people would like it to be true helicopters are not flying tanks. The desert is also the worst place to deploy helicopters as there is little to no cover for them to use.

A single incident shouldn't and probably won't influence the deployment of the equipment. What should and probably has happened is a reevaluation of how to use that equipment to the best advantage.

I agree with you, but in the current incarnation as evidenced by the AARs, Apaches are used as flying tanks because they are relatively invulnerable and effective. That tactic will be used if Apaches can operate that way with impunity. I'd take issue somewhat with the characterization that it was just in the desert as NATO commanders were so worried about their survivability vs Serbian AA and their general limitations that they grounded them in SE European terrain which would have had a lot more cover than central Germany.

Probably the best tactic is to keep them close to the front and have air superiority with a lot of AA/AAA suppression. And, of course, keep them and the Hinds out of the way of fixed-wing aircraft.....

But at the moment, the Apache and Hind seem to be the Queen of the battlefield.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

What an absolutely fascinating thread, worthy of discussion at a War College somewhere.
I'm going to try and start a thread over at ARRSE and see if we can get some Brit tankers take on this.
I had a boardgame called Air Cav (http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3309/air-cav
Been a long time since I played it but looking at the data cards on the site above it looks like nearly everything could engage Helicopters.
And if I am reading those cards right someone obviously thought MBT main guns could, in the words of our Army Brethren, 'Deliver the good news' to Ivan's Helicopters
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

Interesting documentary from the 70's about the use of US Helicopters on the Central Front.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=9f3_1241969828
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

Sorry for the multiple posts but just came across this after someone on another site mentioned a UK Lynx being engaged by a T-55

Full story here: T-55 v Lynx

High above the southern Iraqi desert there was a loud crash to the right of our Lynx helicopter. It was followed by what felt like a sack of gravel being thrown over the window.

One, two, three, four, five - BOOM! A blinding flash lit the air in front; an explosion so strong that my armoured chest plate lifted from my body and our Lynx bucked wildly as if a lorry had rammed it.

The helicopter filled with the stench of cordite. Below, an Iraqi T55 tank was firing at us. We faced a classic engagement, a straight gunfight. The best shot would win. The loser would die in flames.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z3MzwExhAR
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Mad Russian
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

Not a problem. Post as many times as you like...we don't have a limit!! [:D]

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LuckyJim1010
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

This has kicked off over at ARRSE, well a little bit anyway [:)]

One chap replied:

"Used to practice engaging enemy rotary sh1t regularly on the Challenger 2 PGTE trainers at Lulworth, easy work, lase it, auto track, and fin round away"

And the consensus seems to be "Yep we would have fired at the Helicopters"

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by CapnDarwin »

My question on the whole matter of weapons at helicopters has always been you can take one down with a rock if you do it right, but when do you do it. In training, when it is the only target is one thing. On the battlefield with steel, tungsten and depleted uranium flying around from all angles, when do you stop to even notice the helo? We can do up some AI logic to engage helos with main guns on tanks, but what are realistic engagement parameters in battle? If we can nail that down clearer I would be in favor of adding some additional logic in 2.1 to allow for it.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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LuckyJim1010
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

Well to kick start the discussion.

Unit spots an enemy Helo unit

Is spotting unit under attack? NO - Go Next
Does unit have LOS to High Priority target NO - Go Next
Is enemy Helo hovering - YES - Go Next
ENGAGE_ENEMY_HELO_UNIT(FiringUnit,Target_Unit,WeaponType,Range)

You get the idea

However how would you deal with the 'Hold your fire they have not spotted us yet' type of situation.

No one said it would be easy [:)]


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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1010

No one said it would be easy [:)]

Least of all us! [:D]

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by Mad Russian »

Attack helicopters were originally designed to escort helicopter troop transports and give gun and rocket fire suppressive support for their airmobile assault. The first purpose built attack helicopter, the AH-1G, was put into service in 1968. They weren't looked at as anti-tank weapons until 4 years after that. when a UH-1 fired a TOW missile for the first time in combat, in support of the South Vietnamese Army at the Battle for An Loc.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

Over at the other forum the thread has morphed a little bit into the effectiveness of Gun based AD units,Zoo 23, Vulcan etc

But back to MBT v Helo. The consensus seems to be that unless they were ordered to hold fire they most definitely would engage Helicopters. Here is an interesting post from one of the chaps over at ARRSE

"
Was there a reason we didn't go down the SPAAG route to give mobile AD that could bring fire to the party quickly to protect armour from AH? A doctrinal thing or financial?

Practical problems. The US found this out the hard way with the M247 "Sergeant York" Divisional Air Defence System: they built a radar-aimed, self-propelled gun system to engage helicopters out to a nominal (and never really proven) 4km range, just in time for the dastardly Soviets to upgrade to AT-6 on Hind with a 6km range: so DIVADS, a kilometre or so behind the tanks it was defending (because it was the size of a Routemaster bus, and on a M48 chassis so slower than the rest of the force) was totally outranged.

By the time you'd moved to a system that got you in the same sort of range as the threat, you were either talking a 76mm gun or thereabouts (the Italians designed a SP 76mm AA gun, but from memory got no sales) or were driven to missiles. SPAAG could deter and occasionally kill aircraft using unguided munitions, or first-generation HELARM, but lacked the range to handle aircraft with guided weapons (Maverick, AS-14B, et cetera) or helicopters with second-generation missiles like HOT/TOW/AT-6.

And tanks firing their main armament were considered a major threat to HELARM at least by the 1990s: accurate, short time of flight, and the armour on a Hind was enough to turn a APFSDS round from a knitting needle through-and-through to spall, fragmentation, and major misery for the recipient.

I'm on holiday, why am I weapons-geeking for free on Boxing Day? "
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

And here is a good little video of why you do want to be near these things when something goes wrong. Watch it to the end.

Oh Dear
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by CapnDarwin »

U.S. Doctrine centered on having the Air Force grab and maintain air superiority over the battlefield. Hence no real need for local AD assets. The US also would not by a foreign system (like the west German Gepard) and that led to the sergeant York fiasco.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by MikeAP »

ORIGINAL: LuckyJim1010
And the consensus seems to be "Yep we would have fired at the Helicopters"

There are doctrinal procedures for firing main gun, coax, and caliber 50 at rotary AND fixed wing aircraft.

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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

Getting back into the game as I tend to wait for upgrades/patches.
Just played the Tutorial and has lost only 2 tanks (1st Armd SHQ) when the popup said you have killed 70% of the enemy force - Carry on or Quit
I played on
I had the 1st Inf sat in Nordheim occupying all the VP hexes. The Javelin Team was West of the river in the Northernmost town hex.
Up to this point I had not seen any Pact Helicopters.
Then a flight of 3 Hind P's appeared and hovered over Eastern Nordheim. The Javelin team fired a couple of times I think (Ammo was 85%) but no hits.
The 3 mech platoons all fired - no hits or at least no damage.
The 3 Hinds then proceeded to take out 5 Challengers, 3 Warriors and a Striker.
All engagements were at max 2K range,except the Striker - that was 3000M, with the Brit Infantry all being one hex away or for one lucky unit, same hex.
Then the Hinds bugged out. I assume they left as they were out of Ammo after the Turkey Shoot they just had.
So 3 Hinds swan around a battlefield with complete immunity for a 20 minute turn resolution.
Okay so nothing damaged them but surely their morale and common sense alone would make them think 'WTF, get me out of here'
One of the posts above you mention 'They are not Main Battle Tanks' but they are MORE POWERFUL than MBT's at the moment.
I must stress again, these 3 Heroes of the Soviet Union were all alone out there, no Pact ground forces anywhere.







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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by MTTODD »

When I read reports like that, it makes me not want to start playing the game.

I bought the game recently hoping that all the patches and complaints over to powerful Hinds had been fixed.

Now I'am not so sure.
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by CapnDarwin »

Just because a unit like the Hinds roll in, standoff at 2k, lay waste to exposed enemies and then fly off does not show any problem in the game or an overpowered unit. Attack helos only real fear is AD units. More to the point ones it can "see" with its sensors. Another point here to make too. This is the tutorial scenario. It is clearly stated in the tutorial manual as be an unbalanced mashup of units to show players how to use each item. Third point. The player achieved a sudden death victory and played on. This gave the Hinds a chance to refuel and rearm and go hunting again and hit a clump of the players units.

Again no real problems here to patch or fix. We will look at adding tank main guns as a possible valid attack against helos in 2.1 and that may add a bit more influence in helos going in toe to toe with units, but it won't end standoff shots with ATGMs and rockets.
OTS is looking forward to Southern Storm getting released!

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MTTODD
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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by MTTODD »

HI,

Thanks for getting back, sorry for asking all these questions!

But reading this thread still leaves a few questions that would be great if they were answered:

1) I understand that ATGMS would cause havoc on tanks (hitting the top & side armour etc), but would the same be true with unguided rockets ?
The test that TAZAK ran still show destructive results with Hinds using only rockets, is that to be expected with 57mm rockets on modern armour ?

2) Some users mentioned NATO AD not firing at all in an engagement, why would that be ?

Many thanks.


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RE: Helicopters in FPC

Post by LuckyJim1010 »

I don't see what difference playing on makes. The Hinds had not appeared until after the Carry On button was pressed. They didn't need to go back and and replen.

Plus it may be the tutorial but given the Brits lack of AD I think that scenario is pretty much a standard setup

So 12 - 14 unharmed Warrior AFVs' with what, 100 ground troops, a Javelin section, and 9 Challengers with no ground unit distraction sat there and got walloped by a section of Hinds at ranges from less than 500 m out to 2 kms. And the whole turn the Javelins were 1 hex away.

I'll move on to a 'real' scenario and see what happens but I have to say, something don't feel right.





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