WitW upgrade to WitE

Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: The German-Soviet War 1941-1945 is a turn-based World War II strategy game stretching across the entire Eastern Front. Gamers can engage in an epic campaign, including division-sized battles with realistic and historical terrain, weather, orders of battle, logistics and combat results.

The critically and fan-acclaimed Eastern Front mega-game Gary Grigsby’s War in the East just got bigger and better with Gary Grigsby’s War in the East: Don to the Danube! This expansion to the award-winning War in the East comes with a wide array of later war scenarios ranging from short but intense 6 turn bouts like the Battle for Kharkov (1942) to immense 37-turn engagements taking place across multiple nations like Drama on the Danube (Summer 1944 – Spring 1945).

Moderators: Joel Billings, elmo3, Sabre21

HMSWarspite
Posts: 1404
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:38 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by HMSWarspite »

Having been reading the WitW thread, especially logistics, I cant wait for the upgrade to the East. If I understand it properly, it will address all the issues with 'pace' and scope of the USSR offensives (and Ge post 1941 for that matter), may reduce the need for first turn special rules, will address some of the gamey breakthrough tricks, and generally make for a more realistic game. May even give Russia a reason to forward defend (other than to play nicely!). Losing all that depot stock (or evacuating it, and using all the rail capacity to do so would certainly be an issue). Devil will be in the details (like rail capacities) but should be fixable.


Comments anyone?
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
User avatar
loki100
Posts: 11699
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:38 pm
Location: Utlima Thule

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by loki100 »

yes ... agree

also imposing a MP cost for a hex that has seen fighting (perhaps related to the intensity of that battle) should knock on the head some of the current tactics that defy any relationship to space and time.

plus putting the player into a more operational control over the air war has to be for the good.
User avatar
mmarquo
Posts: 1376
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2000 8:00 am

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by mmarquo »

Case Blue very nicely imposes restrictions on movement through embatttled hexes; works very well.
Aurelian
Posts: 4031
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:08 pm

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by Aurelian »

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

Having been reading the WitW thread, especially logistics, I cant wait for the upgrade to the East. If I understand it properly, it will address all the issues with 'pace' and scope of the USSR offensives (and Ge post 1941 for that matter), may reduce the need for first turn special rules, will address some of the gamey breakthrough tricks, and generally make for a more realistic game. May even give Russia a reason to forward defend (other than to play nicely!). Losing all that depot stock (or evacuating it, and using all the rail capacity to do so would certainly be an issue). Devil will be in the details (like rail capacities) but should be fixable.


Comments anyone?


IIRC, that will have to wait for WiTE 2.
Watched a documentary on beavers. Best dam documentary I've ever seen.
amatteucci
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 8:00 am
Location: ITALY

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by amatteucci »

I hope a 1943-1945 War in Europe will see the light before the annouced next titles.
cato12
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:04 am

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by cato12 »

ORIGINAL: amatteucci

I hope a 1943-1945 War in Europe will see the light before the annouced next titles.


which according to the roadmap will be in around 10 years, not long to wait. [:)]

on a side note, I remember reading that there will be some stuff ported over from witw.

does anyone know what that stuff will be and roughly when it will be ported?
amatteucci
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 8:00 am
Location: ITALY

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by amatteucci »

ORIGINAL: cato12
ORIGINAL: amatteucci

I hope a 1943-1945 War in Europe will see the light before the annouced next titles.


which according to the roadmap will be in around 10 years, not long to wait. [:)]
Yes, ten years could be the estimated development time for WiE 1939-1945. But this is exactly the reason for which I'm advocating a 1943-1945 War in Europe to be released before the future North-Africa and early-war iterations.
The engine is there, the map is there, the OoB research for the Eastern front is there.
on a side note, I remember reading that there will be some stuff ported over from witw.

does anyone know what that stuff will be and roughly when it will be ported?
Are you referring to a future WitE patch? My understanding is that WitE 2.0 will feature a total port of the WitW engine but non WitW features will be ported into WitE.
cato12
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:04 am

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by cato12 »

Our next game will be War in the West 43-45 which will be the same scale as WitE and will include a more robust air game with the land campaigns and strategic bombing. After that we plan on War in the West 40 (which will include Norway, France, England and the Med, and add a new detailed naval system) and War in the West 41-42 which will focus on the Med. War in the West 43-45 will have campaigns that start in the summer of 43 and the summer of 44, as well as shorter scenarios. We have an alpha map for all of Europe (including the Soviet Union to east of the Urals), North Africa and the Middle East). We plan to use this map to eventually produce a WitE 2.0 which would fit in with the War in the West products and allow us to fill in a complete War in Europe. Of course, this will take many years.

According to that post there will be three games developed before wite2. considering its taken four years to make witw, ten years seems a very optimistic eta. there is obviously no guarantee it will ever made.

regarding ported witw features,

im pretty sure I read that although most of the features from witw wont be ported into wite some features will in a future patch. we can but hope.
HMSWarspite
Posts: 1404
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:38 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by HMSWarspite »

The only ones I would push in the port are the combat adds to the MP cost of a hex, and the depot/limited supply rail capacity one. The air war, improved amphib and tiled map can wait!
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
User avatar
Peltonx
Posts: 5814
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:24 am
Contact:

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by Peltonx »

ignorance is bliss
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
cato12
Posts: 246
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2011 7:04 am

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by cato12 »

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ignorance is bliss

could you be any more cryptic? [:)]
HMSWarspite
Posts: 1404
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 10:38 pm
Location: Bristol, UK

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by HMSWarspite »

ORIGINAL: cato12

ORIGINAL: Pelton

ignorance is bliss

could you be any more cryptic? [:)]

Maybe

;)
I have a cunning plan, My Lord
amatteucci
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 8:00 am
Location: ITALY

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by amatteucci »

Now that WitW is out, is there more info about the possible ports to WitE?

I understand that, for a full reworked game that features the new map, the new air system the new logistical system etc. we shall, obviously, wait for WitE 2.0. Nonetheless, I was wondering whether the new ground combat improvements (in particular the increased MP cost for hexes in which a battle has been fought and the MP penalty for units engaged in defensive combat during the opponent's turn) might be included in a future patch for the current WitE game.
Numdydar
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by Numdydar »

Other than Morvael's fine work on keeping this game updated, development of any new features in WItE will require a new game, not a patch. So the current version of WitE will pretty much remain 'as is' for the foreseeable feature [:(]
Denniss
Posts: 8875
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2002 10:00 am
Location: Germany, Hannover (region)

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by Denniss »

Implementing core features of WitW is hardly possible - by far too many changes in the code. Rather contrary we hope to get some new features of WitE 1.08 ported to WitW. Especially the split factory/unit upgrade for equipment is a must have over there.
WitE dev team - (aircraft data)
WitE 1.08+ dev team (data/scenario maintainer)
WitW dev team (aircraft data, partial data/scenario maintainer)
WitE2 dev team (aircraft data)
vandorenp
Posts: 1028
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:57 am
Location: Suffolk, VA
Contact:

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by vandorenp »

ORIGINAL: loki100

yes ... agree

also imposing a MP cost for a hex that has seen fighting (perhaps related to the intensity of that battle) should knock on the head some of the current tactics that defy any relationship to space and time.

I am all in for addressing this phenomena of the game. But I urge everyone to consider a realistic model has to have some chance of exceptional results increasingly possible as the units involved are more experienced. Remember for a moment LTC. Abrams run into Bastogne. His battalion secured a narrow passage just a few hundred meters wide for quite some distance. And in another US 4th Armored Division example, there is a 12th US Army Group Situation Map in the National Archives showing the US 4th AD 50 KM or more beyond US lines. In the East there are numerous occasions Peiper smashed through Russian positions, seemingly effortlessly, and maneuvered behind Russian lines leaving both German and Soviet units back at the front.

The hexes are 10 KM wide. That means the sides are 5.8 Km long. In rolling, wooded or rough terrain it would be very possible for mobile formations to pass through a hex, courtesy of a hole opened by assaulting infantry, before the fighting is over. (And perhaps returning the favor by disrupting the defense in the process)
Keydet
User avatar
morvael
Posts: 11763
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:19 am
Location: Poland

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by morvael »

The problem is in the mechanics. No realtime (or impulses). Both sides moving separately, one moves the other one watches in stupor. Units on the same time disjointed in time. Additional MP to move through a hex with a battle site is not a completely good solution (though it helps a bit). This is most glaring in a situation where you use units starting their turn way back from the front to move to the front, attack, create a gap, through which you then move units starting their turn close to the front (to maximize depth of penetration). A few MP more per site won't help much. Actually (assuming the relationship where MP = time to spend) each unit moving through a hex with a battle site should be reduced to the same % of MP as the unit which attacked and conquered this hex had left after the battle. But it's an issue only because of using boardgame system of IGOYOUGO. Computer games should use WEGO systems (like V4V or the AGEOD's games) or realtime systems (like Command Ops). The increase in realism in these games is immense. But they are harder to play (no total control, which some dislike) and (in case of real-time games without "active pause") become a bit arcade experience. I do agree one hex in WitE scale should be fully enough to create a corridor through which mobile units could move to exploit (no ZOC with friendly units in hex).
Tejszd
Posts: 3466
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:32 pm

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by Tejszd »

The Atomic V4V (and later World At War) games were great. By making sides live with their orders you definitely were surprised both positively; catching a unit moving in rail/strategic mode, or negatively; opening a hole that you can not exploit....
amatteucci
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 8:00 am
Location: ITALY

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by amatteucci »

As I already said here before, I agree that, all other things being equal, WEGO is the best solution for a wargame because IGOUGO is only one of the many leftovers from the old glorious boardgame era. Many rules in a boardgame are the simple reflection of the fact that there are only a couple humans that have to make calculations, take notes and push counters. So, they are not the best solution per se, but are the best solution, given these constraints.

Thus, ideally, a computer wargame should do away with all this stuff, like fixed counters, step losses, hexes, IGOUGO, etc. The problem is that the computer is not so smart, so when you require the AI to do something for you, you cannot assume it will do any good, unless it's a trivial task.

Simplyfing my argument, I do think that, there's no way, having weekly turns, to have a viable and realistic WEGO implemented in WitE. In WitP/AE it's another story, with daily turns and land units crawling around in difficult terrain you'll rarely have a land unit move a single hex in a day.

But there's no way the AI could intelligently move all the units of a Panzerkorps during a week long deep penetration into Belorussia. You couldn't simply say to your units go from here to there and expect anything good. The performance of the human player would be worse that the current AI performance in the current IGOUGO incarnation of WitE. A very bad thing.

A possible solution would be to plot the movement for every single hex, including alternate routes, pauses, coordination tips, and a sort of SOP dialog (à la TacOps), that could be changed for every unit in every hex. But, even putting aside programming issues, it would be a nightmare in actual play, even for the most dedicated micromanagers. It would make a PBEM campaign game virtually impossible.

Thus, considering that, in this series, one week turns and IGOUGO will remain, I think that the only thing to do is to minimize the inherent shortcomings of the system, and, in this respect, I think that WitW is a giant leap forward.
Therefore, the more new features that can be retrofitted to WitE, the better.

Numdydar
Posts: 3271
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 9:56 pm

RE: WitW upgrade to WitE

Post by Numdydar »

TOAW III has the best solution to this that I have seen. In simple terms it uses a percentage of time across the entire side. So if you move and attack too much with AGC for example, then there is less time for AGN and AGS to do their attacks. Then once you run out of your time, the turn ends. So it is entirely possible that some units will not move and attack at all.

It works really well to simulate the time and space issue of combat and movement.
Post Reply

Return to “Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series”